JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want you to listen to something that President Trump said about China and about this coming -- possible coming conflagration, economic conflagration with China.

DONALD TRUMP: China wants to make a deal.

They just don't know how quite to go about it.

You know, it's one of those things they don't know quite.

They're proud people and President Xi's a proud man.

I know him very well.

And they don't know quite how to go about it, but they'll figure it out.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Ashley, Jon, is this becoming a battle of wills between Trump and Xi?

JONATHAN KARL: I mean, first of all, I think it's interesting that there were a number of times this week where he seemed to be basically pleading with the Chinese to give him a call.

President Xi's a friend of mine, he is a really smart guy.

I know they want a deal.

The Chinese are not calling, they're not picking up the phone.

And I thought also interesting to hear him talk about how the Chinese are proud people.

And at the same time this week we saw J.D.

Vance refer to the Chinese as peasants.

You know, we're buying things that Chinese peasants are making so that they can buy our treasuries.

I don't know how that squares with talking to proud people.

But I think it's -- you know, he desperately wants a deal with China.

And right now, China doesn't, is not interested in a deal.

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: China's continued to retaliate too.

I mean, they've said over and over again don't retaliate from the U.S. side, and China has.

Also, it's an interesting negotiation tactic from the U.S. as well as China accounts.

There's little evidence that there were actually any calls, steps to meaningfully negotiate before these tariffs went into place.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What you're suggesting is that he's been waiting forever to impose tariffs on China, and regardless of conditions imposed tariffs on China?

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: I think that might be more than suggesting, but -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

No, it's -- but so, again, go to this question of blinking, who do you think blinks first?

TARINI PARTI: I have no idea.

I mean, I don't think Trump knows.

I don't think China knows.

I think they're both -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Xi is not facing midterm elections in 2026 because he is never facing elections.

TARINI PARTI: I mean, I think Trump is going to try to keep on, try to withstand this for as long as he can.

But there is going to be a lot of pressure, especially with consumer prices, as Zolan mentioned.

You know, the two economies are interconnected and there are going to be major repercussions in the coming weeks.

JONATHAN KARL: And this is going to hurt the Chinese.

I mean, this is going to hurt the Chinese economy, but, I mean, arguably more than it's going to hurt our economy.

But, again, you refer to the fact Xi does not need to worry about midterm elections or his own reelection or his own, I mean -- you know, they -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: The Chinese had been through worse periods of economic, the hard times.

ASHLEY PARKER: And this is also why the markets didn't suddenly, completely settle after Trump backtracked on Wednesday because the markets are sort of saying, we don't necessarily think anyone is going to blink sufficiently quickly.

JONATHAN KARL: And it's important to say he backtracked.

It was a total reversal, for sure, but he still leaves in place the largest -- one of the largest tax increases that we have ever seen, the largest tariffs on China in more than a hundred years.

I mean, we're still in a place with 10 percent on every nation around the world and, you know, 145 percent tariffs on China.

This is not a full backtrack.

TARINI PARTI: And the big question of uncertainty, it still leaves in place too.

Because we saw in the campaign, he talked about across the board tariffs, and then it went from across the board to reciprocal and then some combination of the two.

And now they're making deals with countries that we don't know how it's going to turn out.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Look, I was planning on doing another two hours on Smoot-Hawley, but I got to pivot to a couple other subjects.

I'm sure we'll be coming back to this.

Two important things, possibly incipient constitutional crisis over whether a particular deportee to El Salvador is going to be returned.

Can you give us the state of play right now Zolan?

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: The Supreme Court basically came down and directed the administration to take steps to return the specific deportee, a Maryland man who just, it's worth reminding folks, was deported and the U.S. had found that he had some legal status.

The administration admitted in a court order that it was an administrative error to remove that man as well.

So, the courts have said that they want the administration to take steps to return him.

That deadline, the administration, was directed today to outline what those steps would be to return that person.

And they said essentially that they want more time.

They want to report back until next week.

So, you still have this fight ongoing that has had legal experts worried that we could be getting closer to a constitutional crisis.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Ashley, Trumpologist, is he -- that's your new title.

ASHLEY PARKER: I'm hoping for your PhD in Trumpopology.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: PhD in Trumpology, senior Trumpologist.

Do you think he would ever openly defy the Supreme Court?

ASHLEY PARKER: I think -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Are we heading there?

ASHLEY PARKER: I think we're certainly heading there.

If you look at his comments and you look at the comments of his vice president, the Overton window has shifted and there is talk about impeaching or floating the idea of impeaching judges if you don't like their rulings.

His administration, in many ways, has already started to defy judges.

It is worth noting he still speaks with a lot of respect for the Supreme Court.

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS: Just a couple minutes ago, too.

He actually got off Air Force One and said, if the Supreme Court were to tell me to return somebody, I would.

ASHLEY PARKER: But he also believes the Supreme Court are my justices, his justices.

So, who knows how he'll speak of his justices if they repeatedly defy him.

JONATHAN KARL: I don't think he would, but I know there are people around him that would encourage him to.

And also, I mean, frankly, look at the reaction to this ruling.

You know, Stephen Miller was basically acting like it said something different.

I mean, this was clearly a defeat for the administration.

He said it was a victory for the administration.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Jon, let me go to one more subject.

It's a subject that makes me feel a little yippy.

It's these executive orders that are targeting individuals who have been critical, individuals and law firms, obviously, that have been critical of President Trump.

This week, Miles Taylor, former Homeland Security, Chris Krebs, the former head of the Cybersecurity Infrastructure Security Agency, were targeted very personally for investigation and the implication of prosecution.

And this is what -- I mean, this is the most remarkable part of the Chris Krebs executive order to me.

It stated Krebs, through CISA, the cybersecurity agency, falsely and basely denied that the 2020 election was rigged and stolen, including by inappropriately and categorically dismissing widespread election malfeasance and serious vulnerabilities with voting machines.

He is -- this executive order is saying Chris Krebs should be investigated because he says that I lost the 2020 election.

Donald Trump lost the 2020 election.

JONATHAN KARL: Chris Krebs did something very important after the election.

He said clearly this was a secure election.

The election was not stolen.

And now he finds himself in executive order from the president of the United States directing the Justice Department to investigate him.

That and of itself, no matter what the issue would be, is an extraordinary moment.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Tarini.

I'll end with you.

I mean, give us -- frame this out a little bit.

I mean, this seems like we've entered a new phase where he's going to potentially prosecute former officials of his administration for saying that he lost in 2020.

That's -- we're heading into Orwellian territory.

TARINI PARTI: That is definitely a step farther than we've seen him go with, you know, law firms that he's also been, you know, waging a retribution campaign against.

So, this is definitely a step further.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

I'm sure we're going to come back to that subject next week, but we're going to have to leave it there.

I want to thank our guests for joining me.

And thank you at home for watching us.