>>> A LOT CAN CHANGE IN FIVE YEARS AND MANY PEOPLE WATCHING THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION ON THIS DAY IN 2021 MIGHT NOT PREDICTED DONALD TRUMP'S RE- ELECTION WHRVMENT HE RETURNED TO OFFICE LAST JANUARY TRUMP PARDONED GROUPS OF SUPPORTERS THAT STORMED THE CAPITOL AFTER HE LOST THE ELECTION.

PARDONING THE INSURRECTIONIST IS JUST ONE OF THE ACTIONS THAT CRITICS CALL AN ATTEMPT TO REDUCE JANUARY 6th TO AN AFTERTHOUGHT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

THE PROFESSOR AND HOW FASCISM WORKS, JASON STANLEY SAYS THE COURTS PLAYED AN OUTSIDE ROLE IN THAT.

>> JASON STANLEY, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU ARE JOINING US ON JANUARY 6th, THE FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION, YOU SERVED AS AN EXPERT ADVISORY TO THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE.

ABOUT A YEAR AFTER YOU WROTE THAT AMERICA WAS ENTERING QUOTE A LEGAL PHASE OF FASCISM, WARNING IT WAS FOLLOWED BY LEGAL LIKE REWRITING LAWS AND ELECTION RIGHTS.

HERE WE ARE FIVE YEARS LATER HAS YOUR OPINION CHANGED?

>> NO, AND I THINK THE SUPREME COURT RULING THAT HAS GIVEN THE PRESIDENT CART BLANCHE OVER OFFICIAL ACTS MAKES THE SITUATION WE FACE EVEN MORE DIRE AS WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST YEAR.

>> I WILL GET TO THAT IN JUST A SECOND, LET'S TALK ABOUT VENEZUELA, RIGHT NOW DOES THE END JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE REJOICING IN VENEZUELA AND OUTSIDE WHO EVEN THE NOBLE PRIZEWINNER, SHE CELEBRATED THIS OPERATION, SHE SAID IN A STATEMENT AS OF TODAY NICHOLAS MADURO FACES INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE FOR THE CRIMES AGAINST VEN VENS PEOPLE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

SAYING THE U.S.

IS UPHOLDING THE LAW.

IS THERE JUSTIFICATION IN THE EYES OF THE ADMINISTRATION SAYING THIS WAS A DESPICABLE HUMAN AND CAN HE IS SHOULD NOT BE IN POWER.

WE TRIED TO NEGOTIATE AN END TO IT BUT DID NOT WORK OUT?

>> WHAT WOULD YOU THINK OF ANOTHER COUNTRY KIDNAPPED PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING THAT HE HAS DONE ALL OF THESE ILLEGAL THINGS, HE IS NOT VERY POPULAR, HE IS DISPOTTIC?

OBVIOUSLY THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

OBVIOUSLY MADURO IS HORRIFIC, OBVIOUSLY VENEZUELA HAS FACED HIS RULE AND UNDER THE PRIOR RULE.

HOWEVER, NONE OF THAT IS AN EXCUSE JUST AS IT WOULD NOT BE, TRUMP'S MISRULE, TRUMP'S OPEN ILLEGALITY WOULD NOT BE AN EXCUSE TO TAKE OUT TRUMP.

SIMILARLY, TRUMP IS NOT SUGGESTING AT ALL THAT PUTIN SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY.

AND PUTIN IS HAS DESTROYED HIS OWN COUNTRY, KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HIS OWN CITIZENS IN A POINTLESS WAR, KILLED THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIANS.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF SPOTS, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE HERE?

THE DIFFERENCE HERE IS THAT TRUMP CAN, THERE IS OIL IN VENEZUELA AND TRUMP CAN BENEFIT THOSE THAT SUPPORT HIM, TRUMP CAN BENEFIT COMPANIES.

LOOK, THIS CONNECTION BETWEEN INTERESTS AND AUTOCRATS WELL KNOWN, IF YOU SUPPORT THE OLEGARIC, THEY WILL SUPPORT YOU.

SO THE MOTIVATION HERE IT IS CLEAR.

NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY OR THE BETTERMENT OF THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

ALSO, TRUMP USED THIS TO SAY HE WILL TARGET OTHER COUNTRIES, COLOMBIA, NOW, THERE IS NO SIGN THAT COLOMBIA IS COLLAPSING IN ANY WAY, NOW HE IS SAYING HE WILL TARGET GREENLAND AND NOT -- DENMARK IS NOT SUBJECTED GREENLAND TO ANY KIND OF AUTOCRATIC RULE.

>> YOU HAVE DOCUMENTED THERE IS A SHIFT TO THE RIGHT.

I WONDER WHAT THE ACTIONS OF THE UNITED STATES IN THE PAST WEEK, THE PAST YEAR WHAT THEY DO TO OTHER DICTATORS AROUND THE WORLD?

>> WELL, TRUMP IS CLEARLY SIGNALING TO PUTIN AND XI THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT IN THEIR LOCAL AREAS.

HIS UKRAINE POLICY FAVORED PUTIN, NOW THESE ACTIONS ARE A SIGNAL TO PUTIN THERE IS NO INTERNATIONAL ORDER LEFT.

THAT EVERY AUTHORITARIAN LEADER AND DICTATOR CAN EXERT POWER OVER NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES OR THEY WISH TO PROFIT FROM.

TRUMP IS SIGNALING THAT THERE IS NOTHING THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD DO.

THE UNITED STATES IS TAKING THE LEAD ON JUST THESE KINDS OF ACTIONS.

>> THE RESPONSE FOR MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY HEAR YOU AND AS YOU DRAW THESE PARALLELS AND THESE COMPARISONS THEY ARE GOING TO SAY LOOK IT IS NOT FAIR TO COMPARE THE UNITED STATES TO A PLACE LIKE HUNGARY OR WHEREVER?

WE HAVE THESE INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE CHECKS AND BALANCES ON THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO, LET'S FIRST, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE SUPREME COURTS.

WHAT LAYER OF CONFIDENCE THAT THE SUPREME COURT WILL BE A CHECK ON THE RISE OF POWER?

>> NONE.

THE SUPREME COURT SEEMS FULLY COMMITTED TO KEEPING THIS FAR RIGHT MACHINE IN POWER.

SO, EVEN WELL AFTER TRUMP WE CAN EXPECT THE SUPER MAJORITY, MANY WHO WERE A POINTED BY PRESIDENTS NOT A ELECTED BY THE POPULAR VOTE.

WE CAN EXPECT THE SUPER MAJORITY TO, TO, LEGISLATE IN SUCH A WAY THAT KEEPS THE MACHINE BEHIND TRUMP IN POWER.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT WITH THE USE OF THE SHADOW DOCKET.

THEY RULED AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THIS SUPREME COURT WAS A BLOCK ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THEY HALTED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES ACROSS THE BOARD.

ONE EVER NOTABLE WOULD BE THE ATTEMPT TO FORGIVE STUDENT LOANS.

SO, THE DISPARITY BETWEEN THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE TRUMP REGIME AND THE RELATIONSHIP TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS THAT DISPARITY SHOWS THAT THIS IS SIMPLY PARTISAN, PARTISAN UNDER SELLS WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

IT IS A SUPREME COURT THAT WILL BLOCK ANYTHING, ANY DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO DO.

THEY BLOCKED SO MUCH OF WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS TRYING TO DO AND THEY ARE GOING TO USE THE SHADOW DOCKIT.

THEY WILL USE VARIOUS METHODS --DOCKET.

THEY WILL USE VARIOUS METHODS TO OVERRULE LOWER COURT'S DECISIONS THAT FIND PROBLEMS WITH THE TRUMP, WITH WHAT TRUMP, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING AND THEY ARE JUST GOING TO KEEP HAVING THIS ADMINISTRATION WHAT HANDING THIS ADMINISTRATION WHAT THEY WANT AND THEY WILL KEEP ON DOING THAT FOR WHOEVER IS IN POWER AS LONG AS THEY ARE PART OF THIS FAR RIGHT MACHINE.

SO, THAT IS A PROBLEM THAT IS GOING TO EXTENT WELL PASSED TRUMP.

>> ARE THERE NOT LOWER COURTS TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AGAIN AND AGAIN.

BUT THE SUPREME COURT CONTINUALLY OVERRULES THOSE LOWER COURTS.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT IS OUR PROBLEM.

SOME FUTURE LEGISLATIVE ACTION IS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS.

BUT T IS JUST GOING TO BE AN IMMENSE STRUGGLE BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT STANDS FOR NOTHING OTHER THAN A SET OF FAR RIGHT PRINCIPALS AND THEY ARE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO STYMIE ANY LEGISLATIVE ACTION THAT WILL RUN COUNTER TO THIS FAR RIGHT AGENDA.

WE HAVE LOWER COURTS, JURIES ARE HELPING, SOME OF THE CLEAR WEAPONIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS RUN AGROUND IN SOME OF THESE CASES BECAUSE GRAND JURIES REFUSED TO INDICT.

WE HAVE SEEN THE CASES COLLAPSE.

SO, I THINK SEVERAL THINGS HERE ALONG THE GENERAL QUESTION OF INSTITUTIONS THAT YOU ARE FRAMING HERE.

I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION BELIEVES NO DEMOCRAT WILL BE EVER IN POWER AGAIN.

THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE SENSE OF THEIR ACTIONS THE ACTIONS OF MAGA-REPUBLICANS THEY BELIEVE DEMOCRATS WILL NEVER BE IN POWER AGAIN, HOWEVER, I THINK THAT IS INCORRECT.

I THINK THEY HAVE OVERPLAYED THEIR HAND.

I THINK THEY NO LONGER HAVE PUBLIC OPINION BEHIND THEM.

AND I THINK INSTITUTIONS, THEY DON'T HAVE --THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO TARGET SUCCESSFULLY ALL OF THE PEOPLE THEY TRIED TO >> THIS WAS PART OF THE REASON WHY WE SPOKE LAST TIME WHY YOU PERSONALLY CHOSEN TO MOVE TO TORONTO AND TO A UNIVERSITY THERE.

YOU FELT LIKE THE VIEWS THAT YOU EXPRESS COULD BE TARGETED.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN I AM OF TWO MINDS ABOUT THAT.

I THINK MY MOVE TO TORONTO WILL MAKE SENSE IF WHAT I CAN BUILD HERE ALONG WITH OTHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO CAN HELP U.S.

DEMOCRACY.

WE CAN BRING PEOPLE WHO ARE FREE TO SPEAK AND STRATEGIZE ABOUT HOW WE CAN GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION AND TALK WITH OTHER PEOPLE FROM COUNTRIES LIKE UKRAINE, RUSSIA, BRAZIL, WHO HAVE FACED OR DO FACE SIMILAR SITUATIONS.

THAN THE MOVE WILL BE POSITIVE.

THINK THAT THIS REGIME HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN TARGETING.

I THINK THEY HAVE TOO MANY TARGETS NOW, RIGHT?

I THINK THEY ARE BRUTALLY TARGETING NON-CITIZENS.

SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE NOW WONDERING IF THEY ARE A TARGET.

AND I THINK WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A NORMALIZATION NOW.

WHEN I GO TO THE UNITED STATES NOW I SEE A CRAZY SITUATION BEING NORMALIZED AND PEOPLE SAYING SEE, YOU COULD OF STAYED.

AND I THINK I COULD OF STAYED AT THIS POINT BUT THE SITUATION WHERE YOU CONSTANTLY YOU ARE LIKE WOW, LEGALLY THEY CAN TARGET THIS HUGE SWATH OF PEOPLE AND THAT COULD INCLUDE ME.

DEFINITELY, IT COULD, I AM ADMINISTRATION FASCISTS.

SO, THEY CAN NOT TARGET EVERYONE.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF INCOMPETENCE HERE.

SO, DOES IT MEAN YOU ARE SAFE?

NOT SAFE?

WHO KNOWS?

AND, I THINK PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE LEARNING TO LIVE WITH IT.

YOU ARE SEEING NORMALIZATION.

IT IS REMARKABLE TO ME.

THERE IS A TERM EMERGING, SANE WASHING.

THAT IS WHAT THE MEDIA IS DOING.

IT IS RELATED BACK TO YOU.

DIFFERENT CONCEPT OF NORMALIZATION.

SANE WASHING IS LIKE REPRESENTING WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DOING, THE EXTREME ACTIONS THEY ARE DOING.

TRYING TO FIND SOME RATIONAL FOR THEM.

THE NORMALIZATION SEEMS TO ME SOMETHING SORT OF IN THE AIR WHEN I GO TO THE UNITED STATES.

PEOPLE ARE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT THEY SAY.

PEOPLE ARE SORT OF ACCEPTING THE CRAZINESS EVER THE SITUATION.

AND THE SITUATION DOES SEEM CRAZY FROM THE OUTSIDE.

BUT, PERSONALLY I THINK, YOU KNOW, I, I --AS THINGS HAVE EMERGED, ONE YEAR LATER, YOU KNOW, ARE THEY TARGETING REGIME CRITICS AS HARSHLY AS THEY COULD HAVE?

NOT NOW AND THEIR INCOMPETENCE BLOCKS IT FROM DOING IT.

PA, TEL IS NOT CARR, NOT AS EFFECTIVE OF A PERSON, JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PEOPLE ARE NOT AS EFFECTIVE AT TARGETING THE BROAD SWATH OF AMERICANS THAT HAVE THEY NOW SAID THEY CAN TARGET.

SO, I GO BACK AND FORTH ABOUT MY DECISION.

MY DECISION HAD MULTIPLE ELEMENTS.

IT HAS BEEN VERY HARD.

IT HAS BEEN, IT IS REALLY HARD AT THE AGE OF 56 TO UPROOT YOURSELF FROM YOUR HOME TO SEPARATING YOURSELF FROM ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS TO START A NEW, IN A COMPLETELY NEW PLACE.

THAT HAS BEEN MUCH HARDER THAN I EXPECTED.

I MADE MY DECISION LESS ABOUT MYSELF MORE TO BE AN EXPRESSION, A POLITICAL STATEMENT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK IT WAS A POLITICAL STATEMENT ABOUT AN EFFECTIVE POLITICAL STATEMENT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

IT DID EXPRESS TO THE WORLD OKAY, WHEN PEOPLE LEAVE THAT IS, THAT IS CONCERNING.

PROBABLY MORE EFFECTIVE THAN AND OTHER POLITICAL STATEMENT I HAVE MADE.

>> YOU KNOW.

WE ALSO WITNESSED THE SORT OF DISMANTLING OF CERTAIN AGENCIES OF CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BURR --AND TRUMP ADDED HIS NAME TO THE KENNEDY CENTER.

DO YOU SEE THIS MARRIAGE, COOPERATION BETWEEN STATE AND CORPORATE INTERESTS GETTING BETTER?

IT SEEMS LIKE --IF IT HAS ESSENTIALLY FOUR YEARS, AT LEAST TWO YEARS PLUS TWO MORE TO FLUSH ITSELF OUT THAT WE MIGHT BE AT A POINT OF NO RETURN.

>> I DON'T --WE ARE AT A PONENT OF NO RETURN.

THERE IS NO RETURN.

AND RIGHT, THE MERGING OF STATE AND CORPORATE INTERESTS IS, IT IS, OF COURSE, A SIGNATURE, A SIGN OF FASCISM.

WE ARE AT A POINT OF NO RETURN.

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO RETURN TO?

HOW DO YOU REIMPOSE?

ANY FUTURE PRESIDENT CAN BECOME, MAKE BILLIONS NOW, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY?

SUDDENLY THE RULES APPLY AGAIN?

YOU KNOW, THE FUTURE OF THE UNITED STATES IS VERY, VERY UNCLEAR.

THE REPUTATION OF THE UNITED STATES IS IN TATTERS, AMERICA IS VERY UNPOPULAR.

AMERICA WILL NEVER STAND FOR DEMOCRACY AGAIN, AMERICA STANDS FOR CRUELTY AND WHITE SUPREMACY RIGHT NOW IN THE WORLD.

AMERICA, INSIDE AMERICA THE BANKS, JAMIE DIAMOND IT WAS REPORTED MADE OVER $700 MILLION IN COMPENSATION, PEOPLE ARE GOBBLING UP THE PROFITS.

WE HAVE A CLASSICAL STRUCTURE OF THROWING, YOU KNOW, CULTURAL MEAT TO POOR MEN.

AND, THEN JUST THE CORPORATIONS AND THEY ARE GOBBLING UP THE MONEY.

HOW DO YOU RETURN FROM THIS LEVEL OF CORRUPTION?

THE QUESTION IS HOW WE BUILD SOMETHING NEW.

THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING NEW THAT IS BUILT.

SKETCHING THAT.

IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT STANDS UP TO THIS MERGING OF STATE AND CORPORATE INTERESTS.

BUT IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING NEW.

THERE IS NO RETURN.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME FUTURE POLITICIAN WILL HAVE TO SKETCH A NEW VISION FOR AMERICA.

AND REALLY SOME KIND OF NEW COUNTRY.

>> PROFESSOR JASON STANLEY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.