ALI ROGIN: It's known as the Great Firewall,# and it's what the Chinese government uses to## censor the internet inside its country and# block access to select foreign websites.

Now## a leak of tens of thousands of documents# shows that a little known Chinese company## with ties to that firewall is exporting those# tools to other countries in Africa and Asia,## including Myanmar, Pakistan,# Kazakhstan and Ethiopia.

Recently, I spoke with Zeyi Yang, a senior writer# at Wired who has been following the story.

Zeyi## Yang, thank you so much for joining us.

First# of all, what do we know about the release of## these documents itself?

What does it tell us?

ZEYI YANG, Senior Writer, WIRED: So this is a# trove of over 100,000 documents that came from## anonymous leak.

And collectively we see that# this documents coming from a Chinese company,## Geedge Network, shows that they have# very advanced capability to monitor## the internet traffic that goes into a# whole country and that they're trying## to sell and have succeeded in selling this# technology to some foreign governments.

ALI ROGIN: And this technology we believe,# also undergirds the great firewall itself.## So let's take a step back and talk# about how that firewall itself works.

ZEYI YANG: Anyone of the 1.4# billion people in China right now,## if they are trying to access internet through# their laptops, through their mobile phone,## they will have to go through this filtering# system that decides what information they## can get.

And they cannot.

It means that# blocking certain websites that you cannot see,## it means filtering all the results# that you get on search engines.

So it's really a very big infrastructure# that makes sure people can only see the## content that the government# deems acceptable to be seen.

ALI ROGIN: And this trove of documents# reveals the extent to which this company## Geedge is part of this infrastructure.# But of course there's also information## about the way in which it's selling# this technology to other countries.## So what do we know specifically# about that part of their endeavor?

ZEYI YANG: What we know so far is that# Geedge is a company that mostly operates## like any other commercial cybersecurity# company.

It has hardware and software## products that it sells to foreign# governments and it helps them makes## a very user friendly software to monitor# the traffic coming into their country.

ALI ROGIN: And what does this# company say in response to## criticism that it's engaging in this# with other authoritarian countries?

ZEYI YANG: I don't think a company# has responded to what we found this## time.

But over the years this company has# been mostly low profile.

It hasn't really## been the company that people talk about when# they talk about Chinese square firewall.

But## we are seeing that they actually# have quite advanced capabilities## and I'm sure we'll see them in news# headlines a lot more in the future.

ALI ROGIN: And can you tell us# about the connections that one## of Geedge shareholders has to the# creation of the Great Firewall?

ZEYI YANG: One thing we found is that back in# 2019, the second year that Gage was founded,## Fang Bingxin, which is a scientist in China, was# actually one of the investors in the companies.## And this is the guy who also created the very# first prototype of Chinese grid firewall and## was credited as the father of China's# Great Firewall.

And this might be one## of his attempts to commercialize that kind of# technology and sell it to foreign governments.

ALI ROGIN: Much of this is very opaque.# But what do we know about the strategy## here of reaching out to particular# countries?

Is China and or Geedge## specifically courting other countries# with records of human rights abuses?

ZEYI YANG: Well, what we do know is that they# are targeting companies who already have a will## in censorship.

For example, before Geedge comes# in, the Pakistani government actually has worked## with other companies from the Western# hemisphere to build their own internet## censorship system.

But then those companies# are sanctioned and they have to withdraw from## those local business in Pakistan.

And that's# when Geedge find an opportunity to come in.

They basically marketed the technology# to repurpose the hardware that Pakistan## government already have and use them to build# this more comprehensive, more updated censorships## infrastructure.

And what we see is that the# Pakistani government has agreed to do that.

ALI ROGIN: And there is some data linking# specific countries to using the technology## already.

But what do we know about other# countries that might also be seeking it?

ZEYI YANG: One thing we found this time is# that Geedge Networks has been recruiting## more engineers to maintain its infrastructure# overseas.

And in one specific recording post,## they specifically named five countries that# engineers might have to be troubled to.

And## those are Pakistan, Bahrain,# India, Malaysia and Algeria.

But we also know that Geedge has been hiring# translator who can speak Spanish and French.## So it's fair to say they are probably going# to target a lot more countries out there.

ALI ROGIN: The documents also show# that Geedge is providing services## within China to certain provincial# governments, including in Xinjiang,## where the government is accused# of committing human rights abuses## against the Uyghur Muslim minority.

What# do we know about that part of the project?

ZEYI YANG: I think this is one of the more# surprising findings from this leak.

We're## seeing that the experience of building a# commercialized product of censorship is also## helpful within China.

It's also attractive# to provincial government within China.

For example, in Xinjiang there will# be counterterrorism.

That will be how## to deal with the ethnic minorities# within this province.

But also in## some other provinces in China, it could be# detecting and combating financial scams.

ALI ROGIN: What does this tell us# about the way that Chinese corporations## work on behalf of the Chinese government's aims?

ZEYI YANG: I think this really demystifies# a lot of the ideas about the Great Firewall## because it seems it's so capable, it has# to be built by the government.

But in fact,## a lot of the things in there can come# back to commercialized operations.

ALI ROGIN: Is there anything we can deduce about## China's end game here in terms# of its geopolitical strategy?

ZEYI YANG: I think China very much like# other countries to adopt a kind of Internet## management system that's similar to China's,# because one thing we're seeing right now is## that countries are taking sides when it comes to# how will Internet look like in the next decade.

And China, with its Belt and Road Initiative# and with its other big foreign investment## projects are trying to get more countries# to be on its side.

And what Geedge offers,## I think is one of the things that other# government actually are interested in## because a lot of governments want to have more# control over what their citizens are seeing.## And so this is part of the offer that China can# provide to other countries to join their side.

ALI ROGIN: So interesting.# Zeyi Yang with WIRED.

Thank## you so much for joining us.

ZEYI YANG: Thank you, Ali.