>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> IF THESE TARIFFS ARE USE AGAINST US, THEN WE ARE OF COURSE PROTECTING OUR INTERESTS.

>> TRADE WARS AND REAL-WORLD HOW WILL THE WORLD COPE WITH TRUMP'S POLICYMAKING?

WE HAVE A TALK WITH YOU DIPLOMAT KAJA KALLAS ON THE PROGRAM.

> >> THEN -- >> PUTIN HAS BEEN ON THE WATCH FOR SO MANY YEARS, AND SEEING HIM, SOME KIND OF SOULMATE, I GUESS.

>> WHY PUTIN IS PLEASED WITH TRUMP, BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS YOU MIGHT EXPECT.

I SPEAK TO EXILED RUSSIAN JOURNALIST, MIKHAIL ZYGAR.

> >> PLUS -- >> WITHOUT ANY INTENTION ON THEIR PART, PEOPLE CAN FALL DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE AND DEVELOP SEVERE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT WILL BE WITH THEM THE REST OF THEIR LIFE.

>> "LOSING BIG" AUTHOR, JONATHAN D. COHEN, TELLS ME HOW AMERICANS BECAME ADDICTED TO ONLINE SPORTS GAMBLING AND THE REAL PRICE THEY PAY.

> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

G7 FOREIGN MINISTERS ARE MEETING AGAINST THE EVER- CHANGING LANDSCAPE OF TRUMP'S POLICIES, AND THERE IS NO BETTER EXAMPLE OF HIS ADMINISTRATION'S ERRATIC DECISION-MAKING, THEN IN THE HOST COUNTRY, ITSELF.

CANADA, WHICH IS REELING FROM THE SHOCK OF ITS NEIGHBORS STARTING A FULL-BLOWN TRADE WAR, EUROPE FACES A TRIPLE WHAMMY.

TRUMP TARIFFS, PLUS THE SHOCKWAVES OF SUDDENLY BEING FORCED TO FEND FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR UKRAINE, WITH MINISTERIAL MEETINGS IN PARIS TO DISCUSS NEXT STEPS.

ALL THAT, AS RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN SAID THAT HE SUPPORTS THE CEASE-FIRE PROPOSAL, BUT HAS A LONG LIST OF RESERVATIONS AND CONDITIONS, AS EXPECTED.

>> FIRST OF ALL, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO WITH THIS AREA, IN KURSK, IF WE CEASE-FIRE FOR 30 DAYS?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

THAT EVERYBODY THERE WILL JUST GO FREE, WITHOUT FIRE?

>> KAJA KALLAS IS THE EUROPEANS REPRESENTATIVES FOR SECURITY AFFAIRS, SHE WAS ESTONIA'S PRIME MINISTER UNTIL LAST YEAR AND IT SHE IS IN QUEBEC FOR THE G7.

KAJA KALLAS, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU ARE THERE, AT A G7 MEETING, IN PERHAPS THE MOST HOT TRADE WAR OF OUR MODERN TIMES, IF EVER.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAVE ANY PRECEDENT.

WHEN IS THIS GOING TO END?

HOW IS THIS GOING TO END?

>> WELL, THERE ARE NO WINNERS IN TRADE WARS, THAT IS VERY CLEAR.

IF WE HAVE A TRADE WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES, EUROPEAN-UNITED STATES, WHO IS LAUGHING ON THE SIDE, IS CHINA, THEY ARE DEFINITELY BENEFITING FROM THIS.

SO, THERE ARE NO WINNERS.

EVENTUALLY, THIS CONSUMERS END UP PAYING MORE, AND WE REALLY, REALLY DON'T WANT THIS.

>> KAJA KALLAS, HISTORY TELLS THAT THESE PROTECTIONIST MOVES ARE CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, FROM AROUND WORLD WAR TIMES, CAN LEAD TO MASSIVE DEPRESSIONS, WARS, ALL THE REST OF IT.

WHERE ARE WE, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, AS TO HOW THIS COULD AFFECT WHAT EVER?

THE GLOBAL ECONOMY, AND STABILITY AROUND THE GLOBE?

>> WELL, YOU ARE CORRECT, THAT THESE KINDS OF STEPS WILL -- OR, HAVE PREVIOUSLY IN HISTORY --BROUGHT DEPRESSION, BROUGHT DIFFERENT ECONOMIC STRESS, REALLY, IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD.

AND THAT IS WHY WE ARE TRYING TO PREVENT THIS, AT ANY COST, TO REALLY SHOW THAT THIS IS NOT TO THE BENEFIT OF OUR ECONOMIES, OUR CONSUMERS, AND REALLY TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, MAKE OUR CASE.

BUT, IT IS CLEAR, THAT IF THESE TARIFFS ARE USE AGAINST US, THEN WE ARE PROTECTING OUR INTEREST, THAT IS VERY CLEAR.

BUT, I WANT TO STRESS THAT THERE ARE NO WINNERS IN TRADE WARS.

THAT IS VERY CLEAR.

AND WE WANT TO AVOID IT.

>> WELL, INDEED, FROM THE EU TRADE COMMISSION CAME A STATEMENT THAT THIS IS JUST A LOSE-LOSE SITUATION AND YOU NEED TO GET BACK INTO A POSTURE OF TRYING TO NEGOTIATE ON THESE DEALS, AND MAKE IT WIN-WIN, IF THAT IS POSSIBLE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, WE HAVE SEEN --AND WE HAVE REPORTED, OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING IT --THIS INCREDIBLE WHIPLASH.

THERE IS A TARIFFS, THEN THERE IS A RETALIATION, THEN THERE IS A SUSPENSION, THEN THERE IS A THREAT OF RECIPROCAL.

I MEAN, HONESTLY, FROM ONE MINUTE TO THE NEXT, WE ARE NOT EVEN SURE WHAT IS HAPPENING.

ARE YOU?

YOU GUYS, WHO HAVE TO NEGOTIATE?

DO YOU HAVE A RATIONAL PLAN?

ARE YOU DEALING WITH RATIONAL ACTORS?

>> WELL, IT IS TRUE, THAT WE HEAR A LOT OF NEWS COMING IN, ALL THE TIME.

SO, I WOULD SAY IT IS ALSO, YOU KNOW, VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO SEPARATE THE STATEMENTS FROM THE ACTUAL DEEDS AND ACTUAL STEPS THAT FOLLOW.

SO, WHAT WE HAVE DONE, SO FAR, IS TO REACT ON THE ACTUAL STEPS THAT HAS BEEN TAKING TOWARD THE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND OF COURSE, WHEN WE DISCUSS WHAT OUR MEASURES REALLY ARE, THERE ARE PROPOSALS ON THE TABLE.

BUT, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO KEEP OUR HEAD COOL AND NOT REACT ON EVERY STATEMENT THAT COMES OUT, BUT REALLY, ON THE LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS THAT HAVE ACTUAL EFFECTS.

>> OKAY, SO, AS WE SPEAK, LET'S GO TO THE OTHER ISSUE, THE REAL WAR THAT IS HAPPENING ON, ESSENTIALLY, ON EUROPE'S DOORSTEP BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING, IF ANYTHING, ABOUT THE UKRAINIAN- U. S. CEASE-FIRE PROPOSAL?

>> THE TALKS, IN GENERAL, WERE GOOD.

AND REALLY, THE OUTCOME OF THE RESUMING OF SHARING OF INTELLIGENCE AND THE RESUMING OF MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE, THIS IS VERY GOOD.

AND LIKE SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO HAS SAID, THE BALL IS NOW IN RUSSIA'S COURT, SO WE REALLY WANT TO SEE IF THEY WANT TO HAVE PEACE.

I THINK THE UKRAINIANS, ON THEIR SIDE, HAVE MADE THE NECESSARY STEPS.

>> SO, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OUT OF, OUT OF RUSSIA, ALREADY COMES CONFLICTING MESSAGES?

BECAUSE THE PRESIDENTS ENVOY WAS THERE, YOU HAVE A SO-CALLED CREMEN AID SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS JUST A WAY FOR UKRAINE TO REARM, OR WE WANT THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER.

ALL OF THEIR MAXIMUS DEMANDS.

IN OTHER WORDS, NOT A UNCONDITIONAL CEASE-FIRE, THEY WANT TO ATTACH A LOT OF CONDITIONS.

BUT, ALMOST IMMEDIATELY, OUTCOMES KREMLIN SPOKESPERSON, SERGEI LAVROV, VERY CLOSE TO PUTIN WHO SAYS, WAIT A SECOND, WHAT IS GOING ON?

YOU HAVE HAD TO DEAL WITH THE RUSSIANS FOR A LONG TIME, ESPECIALLY AS ESTONIA'S PRIME MINISTER.

>> WELL, FIRST, I WANT TO STRESS THAT IF RUSSIA WANTS TO END THIS WAR, THEY CAN STOP BOMBING UKRAINE, AND THIS WAR IS OVER.

IF THEY WITHDRAW THEIR TROOPS.

SO, THEY HAVEN'T REALLY, YOU KNOW, WANTED PEACE.

BUT, I MEAN, THE MESSAGES THAT COME OUT, OF RUSSIA RIGHT NOW, ARE ALSO REALLY SHOWING THAT, EVEN IF WE HAVE HAD CEASED FIRES BEFORE, THE RUSSIANS HAVEN'T REALLY KEPT THEIR PROMISES, REGARDING THE CEASE- FIRE AGREEMENT.

SO, THEREFORE, RIGHT NOW, WE NEED TO BE VERY FIRM THAT ANY KIND OF CEASE-FIRE, THEY CAN'T BE COMING WITH CONDITIONS, BECAUSE ALL OF THESE CONDITIONS JUST BLUR THE PICTURE.

EITHER YOU WANT TO END THIS WAR OR YOU DON'T WANT TO END THIS WAR.

SO, WE NEED TO BE VERY FIRM.

>> YOU SAID, AFTER THE DAY BACK IN MUNICH, AND THE MOMENT WHERE IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WAS MOVING FIRST TOWARD PUTIN AND SIDELINE IN BOTH EUROPE AND UKRAINE, THAT WAS A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO.

YOU SAID THERE CAN BE NO QUICK DEAL, BECAUSE THAT MIGHT BE A DIRTY DEAL.

ARE YOU STILL FEELING THAT CONCERN?

OR, ARE YOU FEELING THAT UKRAINE'S VOICE AND EUROPE'S VOICE IS IN THE MIX, RIGHT NOW?

THAT IT HAS TO BE A PROPER, FAIR, AND JUST DEAL?

>> WELL, YES.

I SPOKE TO THE UKRAINIANS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEIR TALKS ENDED, AND THEY WERE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THE OUTCOME.

SO, I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT, WHERE WE REALLY STAND, THERE.

OF COURSE, THE UKRAINIANS WANT THIS WAR TO END MORE THAN ANYBODY, BECAUSE THEIR CIVILIAN POPULATION IS BEING BOMBED EVERY DAY.

SO, WE NEED TO DO WHAT WE CAN IN ORDER TO PRESSURE RUSSIA TO STOP THIS WAR.

>> OKAY, BUT YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION?

DO YOU THINK THAT WE ARE HEADED TO THE KIND OF DEAL YOU EXPECT TO SEE --AND EUROPE EXPECTS -- OR, TO A QUICK DEAL, THAT MIGHT NOT STAND UP?

>> WELL, A QUICK DEAL IS ALWAYS WHEN YOU JUST, YOU KNOW, PUSH UKRAINE TO GIVE UP, BUT THAT IS NOT A GOOD DEAL, NOT A GOOD DEAL FOR UKRAINE, NOT A GOOD DEAL FOR EUROPE, BUT ALSO NOT A GOOD DEAL FOR GLOBAL SECURITY.

BECAUSE THEN, IT REALLY SHOWS THAT, YOU KNOW, RIGHT MAKES RIGHT AND IF YOU USE FORCE, YOU CAN GET WHAT YOU WANT.

I WAS JUST IN THE UNITED NATIONS THIS WEEK, AND I MUST SAY THAT A LOT OF COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE VERY, VERY MUCH WORRIED, WHAT IS THE OUTCOME.

BECAUSE IF THE OUTCOME IS ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH POWER, YOU CAN GO FOR YOUR NEIGHBORS' TERRITORIES, THEN THERE ARE MANY, MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD WHO ARE AT RISK, AND THAT IS WHY WE NEED TO AVOID THAT.

I THINK, RIGHT NOW, AS THESE THINGS ARE GOING, UKRAINIANS ARE STANDING STRONG.

WE ARE ALSO, YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT, AND CONSULTING WITH EACH OTHER, HOW WE CAN SUPPORT THEM MORE, TO BE IN THE STRONGER POSITION.

I THINK, ALSO, WE SHOULD PUT THE PRESSURE ON RUSSIA, SO, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE MORE EQUAL AND THE DEAL WOULD BE SUSTAINABLE AND LONG-LASTING PEACE.

>> MEANWHILE, THERE YOU ARE AT THE G7 MEETING.

AS YOU REMEMBER, RUSSIA WAS ELIMINATED FROM WHAT BECAME THE GH AFTER IT ANNEXED CRIMEA.

THERE IS ALSO, AS YOU KNOW, A LOT OF TALK, FROM SOUTH OF THE BORDER, FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ABOUT ANNEXING CANADA.

SHOULD THE UNITED STATES BE KICKED OUT OF THE G7, IF IT DECIDES TO GO AHEAD AND ANNEX CANADA?

>> WELL, WE ARE NOT REALLY COMMENTING ON THIS.

WE ARE RESPECTING ALL OF THE UNITED NATIONS' PRINCIPLES, WHEN IT COMES TO TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY, SOVEREIGNTY OF COUNTRIES.

AND THEREFORE, I MEAN, WE ARE AROUND THE TABLE, WE HAVE DIFFERENT POINTS WHERE WE DISAGREE, BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF CHALLENGES IN THE WORLD WHERE WE ACTUALLY NEED TO WORK TOGETHER, AND WHERE WE AGREE, LET'S FOCUS ON THOSE.

>> SO, YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT.

I HAVE NOTICED THAT I THINK YOU ARE WEARING A CANADIAN MAPLE LEAF AS A BROOCH?

IT MAY BE TURNED THE UPSIDE DOWN WAY, BUT MAYBE NOT?

BUT, CLEARLY, YOU FEEL --YOU, ALL, AS A GROUP --HAVE TO SHOW SOLIDARITY WITH CANADA?

>> WELL, YES.

WE WERE ALL JUST JOKING, YOU KNOW, AMONGST OURSELVES, THAT THE GERMAN PRIME MINISTER AND ME, WE ARE ACTUALLY WEARING THE CANADIAN COLORS FOR SOLIDARITY.

>> LET'S GET BACK TO THE UKRAINE WERE, OF COURSE.

CERTAINLY, THEN PRIME MINISTER TRUDEAU CAME TO THE UK AFTER THE DEBACLE BETWEEN TRUMP AND ZELENSKYY IN THE OVAL OFFICE, SO CANADA, ALSO VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HOW THIS WAR PLAYS OUT.

OBVIOUSLY, A MEMBER OF NATO.

THIS WEEK AT THE WHITE HOUSE, TALKING TO TRUMP ABOUT NATO, WHERE DO YOU FEEL --WHERE ARE YOU READING --TRUMP AND HIS POSITIONING ON NATO, NOW?

RIGHT NOW, TODAY?

>> WELL, NATO NEEDS TO BE STRONGER, THAT IS VERY CLEAR.

NATO IS STRONGER IF ALL THE ARMIES OF NATO ARE STRONGER.

WHAT WE ARE DOING, ON THE EUROPEAN SIDE, WE ARE MASSIVELY INCREASING OUR DEFENSE INVESTMENTS.

AND THAT HAS BEEN, ALSO, THE CALL OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHEN HE WAS LAST IN THE OFFICE, THAT EUROPEANS AND ALL THE MEMBER STATES OF NATO SHOULD DO MORE.

SO, THE SECRETARY GENERAL ROUTER IS MEETING WITH TRUMP, I AM SURE, AND HE EXPLAINS ALL THE THINGS WE ALREADY DO.

WE KNOW TO MAKE THE MOST POWERFUL DEFENSE ALLIANCE EVEN STRONGER.

>> AND DO YOU THINK THAT WILL BE ENOUGH TO CONVINCE TRUMP?

SHE TALKED HERE, RECENTLY, ABOUT NOT RESPECTING ARTICLE FIVE WHICH IS, AS YOU KNOW, A PLEDGE TO COME TO THE SUPPORT OF ANY MEMBER WHO IS UNDER ATTACK.

AND I JUST WONDERED WHAT YOU'RE DOING?

AND ALSO, COULD YOU EXPLAIN WHAT THE EU HAS DECIDED?

I BELIEVE THERE IS SOME COMMON FUND, OR SOMETHING BY WHICH YOU CAN BUY WEAPONS, OR MARSHAL MILITARY ARMAMENTS AND THINGS FOR YOUR OWN AND UKRAINE'S SECURITY.

WHAT IS THE LATEST DEVELOPMENT?

>> WELL, WE HAVE THE INITIATIVE, WE ARM EUROPE, WHICH IS BASICALLY DIFFERENT ELEMENTS, HOW WE CAN INCREASE FUNDING FOR THE DEFENSE SPENDING OF EUROPE.

WHAT MORE CAN WE DO?

HOW CAN WE HELP UKRAINE TO BUY AMMUNITION, TO BUY THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT THAT THEY NEED, AND SEND IT TO THEM?

BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST FRONT- LINE OF EUROPEAN SECURITY, AS WELL.

AND THE OTHER ARM OF IT IS HOW WE CAN BOOST OUR DEFENSE INDUSTRY, HOW WE CAN DO MORE FOR EUROPE'S OWN SECURITY.

BECAUSE WHAT WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND IS RUSSIA HAS INVESTED LIKE, OVER 9% OF ITS GDP ON THE MILITARY.

SO, THEY WOULD WANT TO USE IT, IF THERE IS A PIECE THAT ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, GRANTS THEM WHAT THEY WANT.

SO, THEN, THEY DEFINITELY WANT TO CONTINUE.

AND THEN, IT IS A QUESTION FOR US, HOW STRONG WE ARE, TO REALLY DETER THESE TYPES OF ATTACKS.

>> NATO HAS SUGGESTED YOU, ALL --EU --STRENGTHEN TIES WITH TURKEY.

IT HAS THE BIGGEST STANDING ARMY IN NATO, AFTER THE UNITED STATES.

IS THAT --THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE FT --IS THAT CORRECT?

HAVE YOU HAD THAT APPROACH FROM NATO?

AND CAN YOU IMAGINE TURKEY HELPING TO SECURE EUROPE, MAYBE EVEN PLAYING A ROLE AS PEACE ENFORCERS, IF THERE IS EVER THAT SITUATION, BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE?

>> AS EUROPEAN UNION, OF COURSE, WE ARE STRENGTHENING OUR TIES WITH TURKEY, AS WELL, WHEN IT COMES TO DIFFERENT COOPERATION POINTS.

TURKEY IS AN ALLY IN NATO, A STRONG ALLY IN NATO, AND WE ARE COOPERATING WITH THEM ON DIFFERENT ISSUES.

WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN SYRIA, WHEN IT COMES TO, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT CONFLICTS, ALSO IN AFRICA, WHERE WE ARE COOPERATING.

SO, WE DEFINITELY --I THINK, IN THIS VERY TURBULENT TIME, WE NEED TO FIND COMMONPLACES AND BUILD PARTNERSHIPS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, TO BE STRONGER, WHOEVER REALLY WANTS TO COOPERATE, WHOEVER SHARES THE SAME VALUES.

>> AND JUST LASTLY, ON GAZA, IN HIS OVAL OFFICE MEETING WITH THE IRISH PRIME MINISTER, TRUMP RESPONDED TO A QUESTION ABOUT HIS RIVIERA ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND EXPELLING PALESTINIANS.

HE SAID, "NOBODY IS EXPELLING ANY PALESTINIANS. "

SO, THAT'S THAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT TO BE THE DEFINITIVE LINE ON THAT, BUT WITH ISRAEL DENYING HUMANITARIAN AID NOW, IN VIOLATION OF THE CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT, WHAT MORE CAN THE EU DO, IF ANYTHING, TO TRY TO GET THINGS BACK ON TRACK, AND EVEN LAY THE GROUNDWORK FOR WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE SECOND PHASE OF THE CEASE-FIRE SITUATION?

>> YES, I MEAN, ON GAZA, WE ARE CLOSELY WORKING WITH THE REGIONAL ACTORS AND PARTNERS.

THE ISRAELI ARAB PEACE PLAN IS THERE, HOW TO REALLY RECONSTRUCT GAZA, AND DO IT SO THAT THE PEOPLE CAN STAY THERE.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF COOPERATION POINTS.

BUT, WHAT I WANT TO STRESS IS THAT ALSO, THE EUROPEAN POSITION IS THAT ANY HUMANITARIAN AID CANNOT BE POLITICIZED.

IT HAS TO REACH THE PEOPLE IN NEED, IN GAZA.

AND WE ARE, YOU KNOW, CONSTANTLY IN CONTACT WITH OUR COUNTERPARTS IN ISRAEL, ALSO, TO STRESS THIS.

WE ARE SUPPORTING THE TWO STATE SOLUTION, WHICH MEANS ALSO SUPPORTING PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, SO THAT THEY CAN PROVIDE THE SERVICES TO THE PEOPLE.

BUT, RIGHT NOW, IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THAT THESE --THAT THE AID IS REACHING THE PEOPLE, AND THE HUMANITARIAN AID IS NOT POLITICIZED.

>> KAJA KALLAS, HIGH REPRESENTATIVE OF THE EU, THANK YOU SO MUCH THIS EVENING FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> THE REALIGNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES AWAY FROM ITS TRADITIONAL ALLIES HAS BEEN A LONG FEARED CONSEQUENCE OF TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION.

BUT, IN THE KREMLIN, HIS VICTORY IS STILL BEING CELEBRATED.

THIS WEEK, FOREIGN MINISTER PRESIDENT TRUMP SUE --SERGEI LAVROV SAID THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS A RETURN TO "NORMALCY" IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND, AS TRUMP TALKS OF PEACE IN UKRAINE, THE NARRATIVE IN RUSSIA HAS CHANGED ON A DIME.

MIKHAIL ZYGAR IS A RUSSIAN JOURNALIST SENTENCED IN UP CENTURY TO 8 1/2 YEARS FOR CRITICIZING RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

NOW, HE IS LIVING IN NEW YORK, WHERE I MET HIM TO TALK ABOUT PUTIN'S AMBITIONS AND THE MOOD INSIDE HIS HOME COUNTRY.

MIKHAIL ZYGAR, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR SHARING.

>> SO, HERE YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND I HAVE BEEN STRUCK ABOUT YOUR WRITING ABOUT THE ELECTION AND THE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT TRUMP'S ELECTION IS SOMETHING THAT RUSSIA HAS BEEN EMBRACING.

EVEN BEFORE THIS DUSTUP WITH UKRAINE.

WHY?

>> I THINK VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS BEEN WATCHING DONALD TRUMP FOR SO MANY YEARS, AND SEEING HIM --SOME KIND OF A SOULMATE, I GUESS --THEY SHARE THE SAME PERCEPTION --THE SAME, VERY CYNICAL, AND NONIDEOLOGICAL PERCEPTION OF THE WORD "WORLD. "

AND WHAT I WILL TELL YOU MORE OF WHAT I'M HEARING FROM MOSCOW RIGHT NOW, THEY FEEL THAT THAT IS THE UNITED STATES, THE END OF THE UNITED STATES AS THEY USED TO BE.

>> IS THE LEADER OF THE WORLD?

>> IS THE STRONGHOLD OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY.

>> OKAY.

>> AND THEY COMPARE IT TO THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION, BECAUSE SOVIET UNION WAS STATE BASED IDEOLOGY, AND SINCE THE MOMENT STOP BELIEVING IN COMMUNISM, SOVIET UNION WAS DOOMED TO COLLAPSE.

AND FINALLY, IT COLLAPSED BECAUSE IT'S LEADER, WAS DISILLUSIONED WITH COMMUNISM, AND STOPPED BELIEVING IN COMMUNISM, AND EMBRACED WESTERN IDEOLOGY, WHICH IS LIBERAL DEMOCRACY.

AND THAT IS SOMEHOW THE SAME PROCESS WE ARE WATCHING RIGHT NOW.

>> BUT, IN REVERSE?

>> IN REVERSE.

A LOT OF AMERICANS DON'T SEEM TO BELIEVE IN LIBERAL DEMOCRACY.

A LOT OF AMERICANS SAY, ACTUALLY, PUBLICLY, THAT DEMOCRACY DOES NOT EXIST.

IT IS SOMETHING VERY ELITIST, IT IS "DEEP STATE, WASHINGTON. "

AND WE SEE, BY THEIR VERY LEADER --WHO IS COMPLETELY DISILLUSIONED --OR, I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS A LESIONED.

BUT, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BELIEVE IN LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, AND HE EMBRACES A NEW TYPE OF RUSSIAN IDEOLOGY, WHICH IS CYNICISM.

VLADIMIR PUTIN IS PRACTICING THIS VERY PRAGMATIC FORM OF BRUTAL CAPITALISM, WITHOUT HUMAN FACE, WITHOUT PAYING ATTENTION TO HUMAN RIGHTS OR ANY KIND OF VALUES.

THEY THINK THAT THAT IS THE SAME APPROACH THAT IS GOING TO BE THE NEW IDEOLOGY OF TRUMP'S AMERICA.

>> AND I ALSO THINK YOU, AND OTHERS HAVE SAID --I MEAN, THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF GREAT BRITAIN AFTER THE DEBACLE, LECTURED VICE PRESIDENT VANCE ABOUT HIS EUROPEAN ALLIES ABOUT EMBRACING ESSENTIALLY WHAT AMOUNTS TO HATE SPEECH, AND THE KIND OF SPEECH THAT POLITICAL PARTIES ARE NOT REALLY ACCEPTABLE IN EUROPE AND EMBRACING PARTIES THAT ARE GENERALLY NOT ACCEPTED IN GERMANY, FOR EXISTENCE.

AFTER THAT DEBACLE, A BRITISH PRIME MINISTER SAID, YOU KNOW, THIS SIGNALS A DRAMATIC REALIGNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AWAY FROM THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE AND THE DEMOCRACIES, AND TOWARDS RUSSIA.

AND HE SAID, PUTIN AND XI OF CHINA MUST BE DANCING WITH JOY.

DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING?

BECAUSE THE WHOLE NARRATIVE HAS CHANGED IN RUSSIA.

>> I THINK WE EVEN DISCUSSED IT WITH YOU, THE LAST TIME WE TALKED, THAT PUTIN'S PLAN ACTUALLY WAS TO HAVE ALTAR.

>> EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS?

>> YES, SINCE FOR THE FIRST TIME HE HAD HIS LEGENDARY MUNICH SPEECH AT THE MUNICH SECONDARY CONFERENCE, HE STARTED CALLING FOR THE "NEW WORLD ORDER. "

AND SHE SAYS THE TREATY THAT WAS SIGNED -- AND THE TREATY BOUGHT DIVISION OF THE WORLD, THAT WAS SIGNED IN 1945 BY STALIN, ROOSEVELT, AND CHURCHILL --IT IS NOT RELEVANT.

OBVIOUSLY, IT IS NOT RELEVANT AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION.

BUT, HE WANTED, AND HE ASKED, TO SET OUT THE NEW WORLD ORDER.

AND HE HAS THIS VISION IN HIS IMAGINATION, THIS PICTURE, HIM, THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, AND CHINESE LEADER, SITTING TOGETHER, AND DIVIDING THE WORLD.

AND PROBABLY, DONALD TRUMP IS THE ONLY AMERICAN PRESIDENT WHO FITS TO THIS PICTURE.

WE CANNOT IMAGINE ANY OTHER PERSON TO BE THERE.

AND I THINK, I KNOW, THAT THE PROPOSAL TO ORGANIZE, TO START THINKING ABOUT KIND OF NEW ORDER, THAT PROPOSAL WAS TRANSFERRED FROM VLADIMIR PUTIN, TO DONALD TRUMP.

AND I GUESS, IT SOUNDS PERFECT, FOR DONALD TRUMP.

THAT IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY.

>> HAVE YOU SEEN, HAVE YOU NOTICED --YOU ARE STUDYING OUT, LIVING OUT, ESSENTIALLY, IN SELF-IMPOSED EXILE, AND YOU HAVE BEEN SENTENCED IN EPSON CHUCK TO YOUR OPPOSITION OF THE WAR FOR 8 1/2 YEARS, HAVE YOU BEEN SURPRISED IN TERMS OF THE HEAD SPINNING CHANGE OF NARRATIVE IN MOSCOW, AND ON STATE TELEVISION, AND ON STATE MEDIA, SINCE THE DEBACLE IN THE OVAL OFFICE, AND SINCE TRUMP STARTED TO USE RUSSIAN AND PUTIN TALKING POINTS TO DESCRIBE THE UKRAINE WAR?

AND SINCE HE APPEARED TO CHANGE SIDES?

>> THAT WAS AMAZING.

YOU KNOW, FOR MANY YEARS, WE HAVE BEEN WATCHING ANTI- AMERICAN RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA, AND RUSSIA WAS THE LEADING FORCE IN THE GLOBE.

PUTIN SAW HIMSELF AS THE SYMBOL OF THAT MOVEMENT, AND THEY SWITCHED, OVERNIGHT.

AND I WAS SO --I ENJOYED WATCHING THE HEAD OF OUR TEAM, WHO STARTED PRAISING DONALD TRUMP, AND EXPLAINING, TO THE AUDIENCE, THAT WAS COMPLETELY UNPREPARED, THAT ACTUALLY HE IS A VERY GOOD AND DECENT MAN.

SHE IS NOT JUST A PETTY BUSINESSMAN.

NO, HE IS A VERY NOBLE STATESMAN.

IT WAS AMAZING.

RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA IS PRAISING DONALD TRUMP.

WE KNOW IT WAS TRUMP'S VLADIMIR --SO, IT IS SOMETHING VERY UNUSUAL.

>> AND HOW DO YOU THINK THEY NEED TO TELL THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE?

AND WHAT IS THE REACTION FROM THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE?

BECAUSE EVEN THE MAJOR PEST GAUFF, WHO IS VLADIMIR PUTIN'S ADVISER AND SPOKESPERSON FOR YEARS, FOR DECADES, AND SO THE PRESIDENT TRUMP THREE, THE FOREIGN MINISTER, SAID THAT U. S. POLICY OR U. S. FOREIGN POLICY IS STARTING TO ALIGN WITH OUR POINT OF VIEW, HERE IN THE KREMLIN.

THIS IS A BIG SWITCH.

HOW ARE PEOPLE TAKING IT IN RUSSIA?

>> FOR MANY PEOPLE, THAT WAS A BIGGER JOY, BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANTED THESE WORDS TO STOP.

AND THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY WANT JANUARY, 2022 BACK.

WHO WANT -- >> GO BACK TO BEFORE THE WAR?

>> YES, HAVE BUSINESS AS USUAL, TO TRAVEL ABROAD, TO AMERICA.

AND THEY WOULD LOVE ANY KIND OF RECONCILIATION, AND FOR SOME PEOPLE, WHO ARE BRAINWASHED, THAT IS A NIGHTMARE.

BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, FOR THE MAJORITY OF POLITICAL ELITE, THERE IS STILL THE PARADOX, AS THEY KNOW, FROM WHAT I HEAR, FROM MY SOURCES, THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN DOESN'T WANT ANY KIND OF PEACE, AND HIS FINAL GOAL OF ALL OF HIS CONTACTS, AND ALL OF HIS NEGOTIATIONS, IS NOT THE PIECE WITH UKRAINE.

AND ACTUALLY, HE DOESN'T EVEN WANT TO HAVE TALKS WITH UKRAINE.

HE WANTS --FROM THE BEGINNING --HE WAS WILLING TO HAVE TALKS WITH AMERICA.

HE WANTS TO NEGOTIATE WITH DONALD TRUMP.

>> WHAT DOES HE WANT, THEN?

IF HE DOESN'T WANT PEACE, WHAT DOES HE WANT?

>> I HEAR THAT HE LOVED HIS PLAN A SO MUCH AND HE DOESN'T HAVE A PLAN B.

SO, EVEN THOUGH HIS PLAN A WAS TO TAKE KYIV WITHIN 10 DAYS AND HAVE ZELENSKYY REMOVES THE --AND SHE STILL WANTS THAT, IN THE END.

AND HE DOESN'T FEEL THAT HE IS LOSING.

HE FEELS THAT THE RUSSIAN ARMY IS DOING OKAY, SLOWLY, BUT STEADILY, ADVANCING.

WITHOUT AMERICAN HELP, UKRAINE IS SEEN AS EVEN WEAKER.

SO, HE IS OKAY WITH CONTINUING THIS WAR.

HE HAS RESHAPED THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY, COMPLETELY, TO SERVE FOR THE ARMY, FOR THE FRONT LINE.

HE NEEDS THIS WAR BECAUSE IT IS THE IDEAL INSTRUMENT TO RUN THE COUNTRY, TO GET RID OF THE DISSENT, TO HAVE EVERYONE UNDER CONTROL, TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE IS NO MUTINY IN HIS CIRCLE.

>> SO, HE DOES NOT WANT A SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT, DEMOCRATIC UKRAINE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND HE DOESN'T PLAN TO HAVE REAL NEGOTIATIONS.

SO, I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS SOME KIND OF GAME.

HE IS TRYING TO PROVOKE ZELENSKYY TO REFUSE, FIRST.

>> DO YOU THINK PUTIN IS SITTING IN THE KREMLIN THINKING, "I CAN PLAY THIS AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION? "

OR, DOES HE THINK, "THIS ADMINISTRATION IS ON MY SIDE, I CAN GET THEM TO AGREE WITH WHAT I WANT? "

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK HE HAS BEEN THERE FOR 25 YEARS, SO, YES, HE DEFINITELY THINKS HE IS SMARTER THAN EVERYONE AND HE IS MORE EXPERIENCED WITH EVERYONE, AND HE KNOWS THAT, UNLIKE ANY OTHER LEADER, HE IS NOT GOING TO EXPIRE.

HE DOES NOT HAVE LIMITS OF HIS PRESIDENTIAL TERMS.

SO, YES, HE THINKS THAT HE CAN PLAY WITH ANYONE.

AND HE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE DIFFERENT NEGOTIATIONS WITH AMERICA ABOUT AMERICA, ABOUT ECONOMIC COOPERATION, ABOUT GLOBAL SECURITY, AND DIFFERENT NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT UKRAINE.

AND UNFORTUNATELY --I GUESS, I THINK, FOR DONALD TRUMP, THE IDEA OF SOME KIND OF PEACE TREATY IN UKRAINE IS SOMETHING HE WISHES TO SEEK, BUT THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN.

>> BECAUSE VLADIMIR PUTIN WANTS A SURRENDER, ESSENTIALLY, WITHOUT CAPITULATION?

>> YEAH.

AND EVEN IF DONALD TRUMP AND HIS PEOPLE SAY, EVERYONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE COMPROMISES, CAN YOU SEE PUTIN MAKING COMPROMISES?

HE DOESN'T NEED IT.

I GUESS, FOR HIM, THE BEST CASE SCENARIO IS THAT THE WAR CONTINUES.

SO, WHAT KIND OF A COMPROMISE BETWEEN WAR AND PEACE CAN WE FIND?

>> AND I WONDER HOW YOU PERCEIVE THE BODY LANGUAGE, AND THE LANGUAGE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP USES.

FOR INSTANCE, THE DEBACLE IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH RESIDENT ZELENSKYY, AND MANY OF THE OTHER THINGS HE HAS SAID.

WHEN PUTIN HEARS HIM SAYING THAT KIND OF STUFF, DOES HE SAY, "OH, THAT IS LIKE ME. "

OR, PUTIN WASN'T REALLY LIKE THAT AT THE BEGINNING?

>> OH, PUTIN WAS TRYING TO LOOK LIKE A VERY DISTANT GENTLEMAN, FOR THE FIRST 15 YEARS, I WOULD SAY.

ESPECIALLY DURING HIS FIRST PRESIDENTIAL TERM.

HE WAS TRYING TO MIMIC TONY BLAIR.

HE REALLY LIKED THE WAY TONY BLAIR WAS LOOKING, AND HE WAS TRYING TO LOOK LIKE HIM.

AND, TO TALK A BIT LIKE GEORGE W. BUSH.

HE WAS NOT SO RELIGIOUS, BUT HE TRIED TO PRETEND.

SO, YEAH, HE WAS LEARNING FROM ANOTHER.

FROM OTHER TEACHERS.

AND, YES, HE HAS BECOME THE REAL POLITICAL BULLY DURING HIS LAST PRESIDENTIAL TERMS.

BUT, EVEN NOW, HE DOESN'T USE THAT KIND OF FRIENDSHIP WITH DONALD TRUMP THAT HE IS USING, SO THAT IS REALLY A KIND OF DIFFERENCE IN MANNERS, I WOULD SAY.

BUT, I THINK HE IS --HE DOESN'T THINK THAT HE TAUGHT THEM TO TALK LIKE THAT, OR TO BEHAVE LIKE THIS.

HE THINKS THAT HE WAS RIGHT, BECAUSE HE WAS ALWAYS SURE THAT IT IS ONLY HYPOCRISY.

LIKE, NO ONE REALLY BELIEVES IN DEMOCRACY.

THAT WHEN ALL KINDS OF AMERICAN ADMINISTRATIONS WERE PREACHING TO HIM ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS, HE WAS THINKING TO HIMSELF, "OKAY, BUT, IF I SCRATCH, THEY ARE ALL AUTOCRATS, THEY ALL WANT TO HAVE DICTATORSHIP. "

HE WAS SURE THAT GEORGE W. BUSH WOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE.

>> AND HE WAS WRONG.

>> YEAH, BUT HE WAS 100% SURE THAT GEORGE W. BUSH WAS FOREVER.

AND HE WAS SHOCKED WHEN HE REALIZED THAT THE WAR EMPEROR OF THE WORLD, RESIGNED, AND LOST HIS POPULARITY AFTER THE KATRINA HURRICANE.

THAT WAS HIS VERSION.

BUT, STILL, ACCORDING TO HIS MIND-SET, "HOUSE OF CARDS" IS THE WAY THAT AMERICAN POLITICS HAS ALWAYS WORKED.

>> TOTAL CYNICAL, SOME ARE NOW CALLING IT "NEANDERTHAL REALISM. "

>> YEAH.

SO, NOW, HE IS WATCHING THIS.

"OH, I KNEW THAT. "

"I HAVE BEEN WARNING YOU THAT THEY ARE JUST LIKE US. "

>> AND ONE LAST QUESTION, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE PUTIN -- EVEN ALL BAD --THEY HAVE THIS CENTRAL, GUIDING PHILOSOPHY, THEY ARE ANTI-LGBTQ, THEY ARE ALL ABOUT CULTURAL WARS, THEY ARE ALL ABOUT FAMILY VALUES, RIGHT?

THAT IS THERE DOMESTIC.

HERE, IT IS ANTI-WILKE, ANTI- DEI, AND IT IS CAUSING HUGE OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT, A LOT OF IT IS SPONSORED AND PUSHED BY BOTS, AND SOCIAL MEDIA, AND INTERFERENCE.

HOW MUCH OF IT IS GENUINE?

AND HOW MUCH OF IT IS MANUFACTURED, DO YOU THINK?

>> YOU KNOW, I KNOW FOR PUTIN, THAT WAS THE DELIBERATE SHIFT, FROM IN THE BEGINNING OF HIS PRESIDENCY.

HE WAS WILLING TO SEE THE LIBERAL, EDUCATED MIDDLE-CLASS AS HIS VOTER BASE, AND HE WAS EXPECTING THOSE PEOPLE --WHO BENEFITED THE MOST FROM THE BEGINNING OF HIS PRESIDENCY -- TO LOVE HIM, TO THANK HIM FOR HIS BRILLIANCE.

BUT, THESE WERE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THE FIRST PROTESTING HIM, AND TO BETRAY HIM, AND TO WANT HIM OUT.

AND THAT WAS --IT HAPPENED IN 2011, 2012, WHEN HE REALIZED THAT HE NEEDED DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

HE NEEDED LESS EDUCATED, LESS WEALTHY, MORE CONSERVATIVE, AND HE STARTED COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IDEOLOGICAL POLICY.

HE STARTED PROMOTING FAMILY VALUES, CONSERVATIVE VALUES.

AND THAT IS THE MOMENT WHEN HE STARTED LEARNING FROM AMERICANS.

IT IS VERY --IT IS NOT ALWAYS A COINCIDENCE.

I KNOW THAT.

THAT RUSSIAN PROPAGANDISTS, RUSSIAN TV ANCHORS WERE RUSHING AMERICAN TV CHANNELS.

>> WHICH ONE?

>> YOU CAN GUESS WHICH ONE.

>> I THINK YOU MEAN FOX, RIGHT?

>> THE CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVES, THEY WERE WATCHING BILL O'REILLY, AND THEY WERE TRYING TO LEARN, AND TO MIMIC, AND FAN THE FLAMES OF HATRED, FROM THE EYES OF THE NEWS ANCHOR.

IT WAS NOT A COINCIDENCE.

PUTIN'S TEAM WAS WATCHING THE FAR RIGHT IN AMERICA, AND WERE LEARNING FROM DIFFERENT FAR RIGHT GROUPS, TRYING TO PROMOTE THOSE FAMILY VALUES.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, RUSSIA IS NOT REALLY THE PLACE WHERE ALL THOSE VALUES COULD FLOURISH.

RUSSIA IS NOT RELIGIOUS.

THAT WAS THE FIRST YEAR OF THE INVASION, 2022, AND THE RUSSIAN ARMY WAS SUFFERING -- WAS HUMILIATED, IN SUMMER OF 2022.

AND IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT, RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT VOTES FOR THE ANTI-TRANSGENDER LAW, BANNING ALL TRANSITIONS, ALL TRANSGENDER PEOPLE, WHICH WAS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN THE COUNTRY, AT THAT MOMENT.

BUT, IT WAS NOT THE ISSUE.

IT WAS NOT DISCUSSED.

IT WAS IMPORTED FROM AMERICA.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT MENTAL CONNECTION BETWEEN THOSE THOUGHTS.

>> MIKHAIL ZYGAR, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, TO A HUGE AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS MARKET IN U. S. SPORTS GAMBLING.

IT HAS GROWN MASSIVELY SINCE A 2018 SUPREME COURT RULING ALLOWED STATES TO LEGALIZE IT, BUT AT WHAT COST TO PEOPLE'S LIVES?

AUTHOR OF HIS STORY, JONATHAN D. COHEN, INVESTIGATES THIS IN HIS NEW BOOK AND HE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHAT HE FOUND.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE!

THANK YOU, JONATHAN D. COHEN, FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, IF YOU WATCH ANY SPORTS ON TV --ANY SPORTS ON TV --YOU JUST SEE BETTING, ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I MEAN, YOU SEE ADS FOR BETTING, SHOWS BUILT AROUND BETTING.

YOU KNOW, AT ONE MINUTE, IT SEEMED LIKE GAMBLING AND SPORTS WERE LIKE OIL AND WATER, THEY DID NOT MIX.

WHEN DID THIS CHANGE?

>> IT ALL CHANGED, OR IT STARTED TO CHANGE ON MAY 14th, 2018, WHEN A SUPREME COURT DECISION --MURPHY VERSUS NCAA --UNLEASHED THE FLOODGATES FOR STATES TO LEGALIZE SPORTS BETTING.

I WILL SPARE YOU THE LEGALESE, BUT ESSENTIALLY, STATES HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM LEGALIZING SPORTS BETTING, AND THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED THAT FEDERAL REGULATION, AND NOW STATES ARE FREE TO REGULATE SPORTS BETTING AS THEY SO CHOOSE.

>> JUST BRIEFLY, IF YOU WOULD, WHAT WERE THE GROUNDS?

WHAT WAS THE ARGUMENT, THERE?

>> THE GROUNDS ACTUALLY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SPORTS BETTING, IN OF ITSELF.

IN 1992, CONGRESS PASSED A LAW, THE PROFESSIONAL AND AMATEUR SPORTS PROTECTION ACT, THAT BASICALLY BARRED STATES FROM LEGALIZING GAMBLING, AND THE MURPHY VERSUS NCAA 2018 DECISION FOCUSED ON NOT ONLY GAMBLING ITSELF, BUT THIS COMMANDEERING STATUTE FROM THE 10th AMENDMENT, THAT BASICALLY CONGRESS CAN'T TELL STATES WHAT TO DO, AND THAT STATES HAVE A RIGHT TO LEGALIZE GAMBLING, IF THEY SO CHOOSE.

>> HOW BIG IS SPORTS BETTING IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> SO, OVER JUST THE LAST SEVEN YEARS, AMERICANS HAVE ALREADY BET OVER $500 BILLION ON SPORTS BETTING, AND ESTIMATIONS ARE THAT OVER 20% TO 40% OF AMERICAN ADULTS HAVE PLACED AT LEAST ONE BET ON SPORTS, AND ALL OF THIS IS BEFORE THE STATES OF CALIFORNIA, TEXAS, AND GEORGIA LEGALIZE THE SPORTS BETTING.

SO, WHEN THOSE STATES OR OTHER STATES LIKE THEM GET IN THE GAME, IT IS GOING TO GET EVEN BIGGER.

>> THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK IS "LOSING BIG: AMERICA'S RECKLESS BET ON SPORTS GAMBLING" --SO, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM, AS YOU SEE IT?

>> AND JUST TO BE CLEAR, I'M ACTUALLY IN FAVOR OF SPORTS BETTING AND I THINK IT IS TOTALLY HARMLESS AND TOTALLY FUN FOR SOMEBODY TO BET FIVE DOLLARS ON THE CUBS TO WIN, OR WHATEVER TEAM THEY CHOOSE, TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA EXCITEMENT OUT OF SPORTS, FROM BETTING ON SPORTS.

MY ISSUE IS, THE WAY THIS WAS UNFURLED, AND THE WAY THIS WAS LEGALIZED AND ROLLED OUT, WAS THE WORD I HAVE CHOSEN TO USE IS "RECKLESS. "

IT WAS SORT OF A FULL ON EMBRACE, OR AN ALL OUT BLITZ, IF YOU WANT TO USE THE SPORTS TERMINOLOGY, WITH NO CONSIDERATION FOR THE NEGATIVE EXTERNALITIES, FOR THE AFTER AFFECTS, FOR THE CONSEQUENCES, FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT DEVELOP GAMBLING ADDICTIONS, FOR YOUNG MEN IN PARTICULAR WHO MIGHT BET MORE THAN THEY CAN AFFORD, WITHOUT ANY INFORMATION, WITHOUT ANY LENGTH OF THE GROUNDWORK FOR HOW WE CAN DO THIS SAFELY.

>> OKAY, SO, LET'S KIND OF WALK THROUGH WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS, AS FAR AS YOU SEE IT?

>> THE PROBLEMS, AS FAR AS THE EFFECTS THAT THE CURRENT VERSION OF SPORTS BETTING -- AND I WILL SAY SPECIFICALLY, ONLINE SPORTS BETTING --HAS ON PEOPLE.

AND IN MY PEOPLE, I DISPROPORTIONATELY MEN YOUNG MEN, AGES 18 TO 35, WHO HAVE BOARD THE BIGGEST CONSEQUENCES FROM THE LEGALIZATION OF SPORTS BETTING.

AND THESE VERY SORT OF SPECIFIC, CONCRETE CONSEQUENCES ARE RISING RATES OF ECONOMIC INSECURITY --YOU KNOW, HUGE PREVALENCE OF YOUNG MEN, IN PARTICULAR, BETTING MORE MONEY THAN THEY CAN AFFORD OR MONEY THAN THEY HAVE.

A LARGE PERCENTAGE HAVE ADMITTED THEY HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO PAY ONE OF THEIR BILLS BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THEY BET EVERY MONTH.

RISING RATES OF BANKRUPTCIES, OF CREDIT CARD DELINQUENCIES IN STATES THAT HAVE LEGALIZED ONLINE SPORTS BETTING, AS WELL AS, THE MOST DRAMATIC EVIDENCE, WHICH WOULD BE RISING RATES OF PROBLEM GAMBLING.

IS THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT INDICATORS OF THIS, CALLS TO HOTLINES, TEXTS TO GAMBLING HOTLINES, AND SOMETHING CALLED "SELF EXCLUSION. "

SO, IF I DECIDE I CAN'T CONTROL MY BETTING, I NEED TO REGISTER WITH THE STATE, THE STATE WILL CUT ME OFF, THEY WILL NOT LEGALLY LET ME BET ANYMORE.

THE RATES OF PEOPLE IN STATES LIKE PENNSYLVANIA THAT HAVE SELF EXCLUDED, JUST IN THE LAST SEVEN YEARS, OUTPACED THE ENTIRE 12 YEAR PERIOD PRIOR TO LEGALIZATION'S.

WE'RE GETTING MORE SELF EXCLUSIONS JUST IN THE LAST 12 YEARS THEN WE SAW FOR A DECADE, PLUS, PRIOR TO SPORTS BETTING LEGALIZATION.

>> YOU PROVIDE A COUPLE PEOPLE THAT ARE MAKING THE POINT THAT YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING, HERE.

ONE WAS A YOUNG GUY NAMED KYLE.

WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME ABOUT HIM?

>> YEAH, SO, KYLE WAS REALLY EXCITED FOR COLORADO TO GET IN THE GAME AND LEGALIZE SPORTS BETTING, AND WHEN THE STATE DID SO, IN 2020, HE DOWNLOADED EVERY SPORTS BOOK APP, TOOK ADVANTAGE OF EVERY BULLISH OFFER.

HE QUICKLY RAN INTO ONE OF THE PROBLEMS I DESCRIBED WHERE HE DIDN'T REALIZE HOW MUCH HE WAS BETTING AND COULDN'T PAY HIS RENT ONE MONTH AND HAD TO ASK HIS PARENTS TO HELP HIM OUT BECAUSE HE HAD BET MORE THAN HE COULD AFFORD.

AND HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO STOP, AND HE WILL GO SIX MONTHS, AND YOU WILL FALL DOWN INTO THIS REALLY INTENSE GAP GAMBLING RABBIT HOLE, WHERE GAMBLING BASICALLY CONSUMES HIS WHOLE LIFE.

HE LOST A JOB BECAUSE HE WAS IN ONE OF THESE GAMBLING HOLES, WHEN HE IS UP, WINNING, HE WOULD GET THIS OVERCONFIDENCE AND WHEN HE WOULD LOSE, IT JUST SORT OF SHATTERED HIS SENSE OF SELF, HIS MENTAL HEALTH, AND IT WOULD LEAD TO SUBSTANCE ABUSE AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER PROBLEMS.

SO, HE HAS SINCE MOVED BACK WITH HIS PARENTS OUTSIDE OF WICHITA, BUT IS STILL GOING THROUGH THESE EXACT PHASES, WHERE HE WILL GO FOR A FEW MONTHS WITH NO GAMBLING, THEN LO AND BEHOLD, THE NFL SEASON STARTS AND HE CAN'T WAIT TO BET ON THE CHIEFS, AND HERE HE GOES AGAIN, HE HAS BEEN SORT OF UNABLE TO BET SAFELY.

AND THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO, BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE IF IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE, LEGALLY, ON HIS PHONE.

WHEN HE WOULD GO TO A CASINO, HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO CONTROL HIMSELF.

THIS IS NOT A GAMBLING PROBLEM, IT IS AN ONLINE ACCESS PROBLEM THAT IS THE ROOT OF HIS ISSUE.

>> INTERESTING.

WHY IS THAT?

YOU ARE SAYING IT IS BECAUSE OF THE ONLINE ACCESS, THAT IT BECAME SO CONSUMING.

WHY WOULD THAT BE?

>> YEAH, THERE ARE MANY REASONS.

ONE OF THEM, IS THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU ARE BETTING ONLINE, YOU CAN BET ON ANYTHING.

AND I DON'T JUST MEAN YOU CAN BET ON ANY GAME, BUT YOU CAN BET ON ANY RESULT, WITHIN ANY GAME, AND SORT OF MICRO BETTING.

YOU CAN BET ON, OF COURSE, THE RESULTS OF THE GAME ITSELF, BUT INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS AND THE RESULTS.

THEN, WHEN THE GAMES ARE OVER --LET'S SAY 1:00 IN THE MORNING OR SO --YOU CAN BET ON MALAYSIAN DOUBLE WOMEN'S BADMINTON.

PEOPLE LIKE KYLE, WHO DEVELOPED GAMBLING ADDICTIONS, THEY ARE NOT ACTUALLY LOOKING TO BET ON SPORTS BECAUSE THEY LOVE SPORTS AT THAT POINT, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR ACTION, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A CHANCE TO RISK AND WIN MONEY AND SORT OF SATISFY THEIR NEED FOR ACTION, WHICH IS WHAT PROBLEM GAMBLERS ARE ACTUALLY ADDICTED TO.

>> I HAVE TO ASK, THOUGH, IS IT, IN YOUR OWN REPORTING, IT INDICATES THAT ONLY SOMETHING LIKE 3% OF AMERICANS FALL INTO THIS CATEGORY, OF A PROBLEM GAMBLER.

AND I THINK SOME REASONABLE PERSON MIGHT SAY, "WELL, I'M SORRY, THAT'S 3%, THIS IS ACTUALLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO PARTICIPATED WHO FALL INTO THIS PROBLEM CATEGORY. "

SO, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I WOULD SAY A FEW THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, PROBLEM GAMBLING IS THE KIND OF ISSUE THAT HAS A LOT OF SOCIETAL SIDE EFFECTS.

THERE IS A STUDY FROM AUSTRALIA THAT EVERY PERSON WHO IS ADDICTED TO GAMBLING, EITHER THROUGH THEIR FINANCIAL NEEDS, OR THEIR PSYCHOLOGICAL NEEDS, THEIR ADDICTION WILL AFFECT FIVE OR SIX OTHER PEOPLE.

SO, IF YOU CAN DO THE MATH, 3% OF THE AMERICAN POPULATION, EACH OF THEM AFFECTING --OR, THE ADULT POPULATION --EACH OF THEM AFFECTING FIVE OR SIX OTHER PEOPLE, ALL OF A SUDDEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AFFECTED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BY PROBLEM GAMBLING.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK SOME OF THE OTHER PROBLEMS ARE, AND ANOTHER GUY YOU PROFILED, NAMED ARTHUR, WHO WAS EMBEZZLING MONEY IN ORDER TO SUPPORT HIS GAMBLING HABIT, AND THAT WAS A WHOLE, YOU KNOW, CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT I THINK PEOPLE COULD ANTICIPATE.

BUT, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER NEGATIVE EFFECTS YOU HAVE SEEN?

>> GAMBLING ADDICTS, PEOPLE WITH A GAMBLING PROBLEM, HAD A HIGHER RATE OF SUICIDE AND SUICIDAL IDEATION THAN ANY OTHER FORM OF ADDICTION, BECAUSE IT IS A --IT IS A DEEPLY, SORT OF SHAMEFUL ADDICTION, THAT WE HAVE NOT SOCIETALLY TO STIGMATIZE.

THERE IS A SENSE THAT BECAUSE IT IS A FINANCIAL ADDICTION, IF A PERSON WERE TO, YOU KNOW, BEGONE, THAT THEIR ADDICTION WOULD BE GONE, AND ALL OF THEIR PROBLEMS WOULD BE GONE, AND SO, THAT, I THINK, FOR THE GAMBLER THEMSELVES, IS A HUGE PROBLEM.

AND SOCIETALLY, I MEAN, I THINK WE SHOULD ALL WONDER, OR ASK OURSELVES, IF -- SPORTS BETTING WAS NOT ONLY LEGALIZED FOR THE PURPOSE OF RAISING STATE REVENUE AND FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING MONEY FOR GOVERNMENT.

I THINK IT IS WORTH ASKING OURSELVES, IF IT IS WORTH EXPLOITING OR PRAYING ON THESE VULNERABLE PEOPLE OR ADDICTED PEOPLE, FOR THE PURPOSE OF RAISING A LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA MONEY FOR THE GENERAL FUND.

>> AND WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

ARE YOU SAYING IT IS BECAUSE THE BULK OF THE REVENUES COME FROM A VERY SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE?

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

FOR THE CASE OF NFL BETTORS, THE 3% YOU MENTIONED, THE TOP 3% OF NFL BETTORS IN THE 2023- 2024 SEASON ACCOUNTED FOR 83% OF SPORTS BOOK REVENUE, SO IT IS NOT AN ACCIDENT THAT PEOPLE ARE DEVELOPING GAMBLING ADDICTIONS, IT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL BUSINESS MODEL.

A DECLINE IN PROBLEM GAMBLING GAMBLING RATES WOULD DRAMATICALLY IMPACT THE BOTTOM LINE OF SPORTS BETTING AND SPORTS BETTING COMPANIES.

THEY HAVE A DIRECT FINANCIAL INCENTIVE AND NEED, ALMOST, FOR THE PERPETUATION OF PEOPLE BETTING MORE MONEY THAN THEY CAN AFFORD.

>> AND WHEN YOU TOOK THAT DATA TO THE SPORTS BETTING COMPANIES, AND YOU PRESENTED THESE FINDINGS, YOU SAID, "HEY, YOUR BUSINESS MODEL DEPENDS ON PEOPLE PROBLEMATICALLY GAMBLING, IT IS NOT YOUR CASUAL, HEY, I'M HAVING A SUPER BOWL PARTY, LET'S THROW SOME MONEY," IT IS A SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY HAVE A PROBLEM, WHAT DID THEY SAY?

>> SO, THEY --WELL, THEY INSIST, FIRST OF ALL, THAT IT IS NOT IN THEIR SHORT-TERM FINANCIAL INTEREST, TO EXTRACT MONEY FROM BETTORS.

OF COURSE, IT ACTUALLY IS, BUT THEY INSIST THAT WHAT THEY WANT TO BUILD, IS A LONG-TERM, SUSTAINABLE BUSINESS, WHERE PEOPLE ARE BETTING COMFORTABLY, AND THEY ARE NOT EXTRACTING MONEY FROM KYLE, AND EXTRACTING MONEY FROM ANDREW, AND SORT OF MOVING ON.

POINT OF FACT, THAT IS, OF COURSE, WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING AND WHAT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY BUILT, BUT THEY INSIST THAT WHAT THEY WANT IS SOMETHING THAT IS LONG-TERM AND SUSTAINABLE.

AND THESE COMPANIES REPEATEDLY LOOK UP TO THIS IDEA OF RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING OR RESPONSIBLE GAMING, WHICH IS THEIR PITCH, WHERE THEY TELL PLAYERS IN ADVERTISING OR ON THE APPS, TO PLAY RESPONSIBLY, WHICH IS THERE SORT OF --THEY SEE IT AS A "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" CARD.

THEY TOLD YOU, WE TOLD YOU TO BET RESPONSIBLY, WE ARE CAMPAIGNING ON BETTING RESPONSIBLY.

THE FLIPSIDE OF THAT, OR THE IMPLICATION OF THAT, IS IF YOU DIDN'T BET RESPONSIBLY, IT IS YOUR FAULT, AND THAT WE TOLD YOU TO BET RESPONSIBLY, AND THEREFORE, ACTUAL, RESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR IS IN THE HANDS OF THE INDIVIDUAL BETTER, NOT IN THE HANDS OF THE BILLION-DOLLAR CORPORATION ENTICING THEM TO BET.

>> THE COMPANIES, I THINK, WOULD ARGUE THAT THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE LAW, THAT THEY ARE RAISING REVENUE FOR STATES, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GAMBLING ARE ADULTS, WHO ARE MAKING THE DECISION, IT IS JUST ENTERTAINMENT, LIKE ANY OTHER FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT IS TRUE.

AND AGAIN, I AM IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GAMBLE, GAMBLING.

I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD THEIR DOPAMINE PATHWAYS REWIRED, AND ARE ON THE ROAD TO ADDICTION, BEING BOMBARDED WITH ADVERTISING, OR WITH VIP HOSTS SORT OF TEXTING THEM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT ASKING THEM IF THEY WANT TO BET OR KEEP BETTING.

I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD BE FREE TO KEEP DOING WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

BUT, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE MOST VULNERABLE, AT THE SAME TIME.

>> ARE THESE BETTING APPS REQUIRED TO ISSUE WARNINGS, FOR EXAMPLE?

LIKE, YOU KNOW, ON A CIGARETTE PACKAGE, IT IS REQUIRED THAT THEY SAY, THIS IS ADDICTIVE, IT CAN BE HARMFUL TO YOUR HEALTH.

DON'T THESE SPORTS BETTING APPS HAVE SIMILAR PRODUCT WARNINGS, NOW?

>> I MEAN, OF COURSE, SCROLL TO THE BOTTOM OF YOUR FANDUEL APP, YOU WILL SEE THE NUMBER FOR THE RESPONSIBLY GAMBLING HOTLINE FOR YOU TO CALL.

THEY WILL PUT THEIR RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING TOOLS FRONT AND CENTER, BUT TO ME, THAT SPEAKS TO THE POINT OF, THEY KNOW THAT THESE RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING TOOLS ARE NOT EFFECTIVE, AND DATA SHOWS THAT THEY --THAT ONLY A FRACTION OF PLAYERS ACTUALLY USE THE RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING TOOLS THAT LIMIT THEIR OWN PLAY.

SO, ALL THESE TOOLS ARE OPTIONAL.

THE COMPANIES LIKE TO POST THAT ALL OF THESE PLAYERS LOOKED AT THEIR BETS OVER THE LAST MONTH, OR LAST YEAR, WHICH IS ONE OF OUR RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING TOOLS.

BUT, THE REAL TOOLS, THAT ACTUALLY HELP PEOPLE GAMBLE RESPONSIBLY, WHICH ARE AVAILABLE ON THE APPS, ARE THINGS LIKE TIME LIMITS, LIKE DEPOSIT LIMITS, LIKE LOCKING YOURSELF OUT AT CERTAIN HOURS, AND IT INDICATES THAT A FRACTION --IN SOME CASES, A FRACTION OF A FRACTION --OF BETTORS, HAVE EVER USED THESE TOOLS BECAUSE THEY ARE COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY.

NOT TO MENTION, ONCE YOU HAVE ENCOUNTERED SOME HARM, ONCE YOU HAVE DEVELOPED A SORT OF BORDERLINE ADDICTION, YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO SORT OF LIMIT YOURSELF, ARTIFICIALLY, AND PREMEDITATED.

IT IS JUST NOT REALISTIC, ABOUT HOW THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO WORK.

YOU KNOW, THE COMPANY IS SORT OF HANGING THERE HATS AND THEY ARE SAYING, WE ARE GOING ABOVE THE LAWS, ABOVE THE REQUIREMENTS FROM STATES BECAUSE WE ARE MAKING ALL OF THESE TOOLS AVAILABLE, BUT THEY ARE NOT ACTUALLY MAKING THEM APPEALING, OR MAKING THEM INTERESTING, OR MAKING THEM IN A WAY THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY USE THEM.

>> WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, THOUGH, I THINK WHAT YOU SAID, IS THAT ACTUALLY, THE STATES HAVE SOME --BASICALLY, YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF FIRING YOURSELF FROM PARTICIPATING IN SOME OF THESE APPS, YOU ARE SAYING SOME PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY DOING IT?

WHY IS THAT?

>> RIGHT.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS I AM IN FAVOR OF A FEDERAL FRAMEWORK, I CAN EXCLUDE MYSELF IN THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT, BUT THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE EXCLUDING MYSELF IN THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS.

SO, A FEDERAL FRAMEWORK OF SOME KIND WOULD SAY, OKAY, JOHN HAS DECIDED HE CAN'T CONTROL HIS BETTING, HE IS NOW BANNED IN ALL 39 STATES THAT LEGALIZED GAMBLING, FROM LEGALIZED GAMBLING SERVICES.

AND I THINK THAT IS A --OH, ON A STATE-BY-STATE APPROACH, IT IS HELPFUL, TO AN EXTENT, BUT IT ONLY TAKES US SO FAR.

>> IT IS SO INTERESTING, JONATHAN, BECAUSE IT IS LIKE -- IT SEEMS LIKE WE ARE HAVING A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS, AS A CULTURE, WITH HOW WE NAVIGATE THIS WORLD OF LIKE, SOCIAL MEDIA AND, YOU KNOW, JUST THE ONLINE EXPERIENCE.

DO YOU PUT THIS KIND OF HESITANCY TO DEAL WITH GAMBLING, AND THE HARMS OF GAMBLING, FOR THE PEOPLE FOR WHOM IT IS A HARM, IS THAT PART OF OUR KIND OF AMERICAN KIND OF, LIBERTARIANISM, LIKE, "LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT. "

OR, IS IT THAT YOU THINK, IN GENERAL, WE ARE JUST NOT REALLY SURE HOW TO DEAL WITH ALL OF THESE NEW TECHNOLOGIES?

LIKE, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK SPORTS GAMBLING HEADS OF THE EXACT SORT OF CENTER OF THOSE TWO, WHERE WE ARE OKAY WITH GAMBLING, AND WE ARE OKAY WITH PEOPLE GAMBLING IS MUCH AS THEY WANTED, GENERALLY SPEAKING.

BUT, NEVER BEFORE, HAS GAMBLING BEEN AS DANGEROUS FOR THE GAMBLER AS IT IS NOW.

NEVER BEFORE HAS, YOU KNOW, THE LAS VEGAS FOUNDERS WOULD DROOL AT THE AMOUNT OF DATA THAT DRAFTKINGS AND FANDUEL HAVE ABOUT EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT HAS EVER OPENED THERE AT.

AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT, FOR GAMBLERS, IS REALLY DANGEROUS.

AND IT IS REALLY EASY, AS A RESULT, THROUGH MARKETING, THROUGH ENTICEMENTS, THROUGH OTHER MEANS OF PEOPLE BETTING MORE THAN --YOU KNOW, IN THEIR SOBER STATE, THEN THEY WOULD INTEND TO.

SO, I THINK, I GENERALLY AGREE WITH YOU, I'M SORT OF INCLINED TOWARD THIS LIBERTARIAN STREAK OF "LET'S LET PEOPLE GAMBLE. "

BUT, THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE TECHNOLOGICAL ASPECTS OF MODERN SPORTS GAMBLING SEEMS LIKE A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

>> I KNOW IN THE BOOK, YOU HAVE SOME RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK WOULD KIND OF MITIGATE THE HARM FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST AT RISK.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE STEPS?

>> I WOULD SAY THERE ARE TWO BIG CATEGORIES.

THE FIRST WOULD BE LEGISLATIVE, ON THE POLICY SIDE.

AND THESE ARE THINGS WHERE, I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE TO HAPPEN THROUGH REGULATION, I THINK THE COMPANIES COULD IMPLEMENT THEM, THEMSELVES.

AND IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO, THEN AS YOU SAID, THE STATES COULD OR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COULD.

THESE WOULD BE THINGS LIKE LIMITING THE AMOUNT OF DEPOSITS A PLAYER CAN MAKE, WITHIN A CERTAIN PERIOD.

LIMITING, LET'S SAY, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY YOU THROW ON A DEPOSIT OVER A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME, MAKING THEM PROVE THAT THEY CAN AFFORD EXACTLY HOW MUCH THEY ARE BETTING OVER A GIVEN PERIOD.

AND THEN, ALSO, SHORTENING THE LIST OF BETTING OPTIONS.

I DON'T --I DON'T THINK ANY SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICA NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO BET ON MALAYSIAN WOMEN'S DOUBLES BADMINTON AT 3:00 IN THE MORNING.

KYLE, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS BETTING ON MINOR-LEAGUE BRITISH STARTS AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING BECAUSE THAT WAS THE ONLY THING HE COULD BET ON.

WHAT THOSE GAINS ARE, IS A TRAP FOR PROBLEM GAMBLERS WHO MAKE A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR COMPANIES, BUT IT IN WAS A HUGE AMOUNT OF HARM FOR THE BETTORS, THEMSELVES.

SO, AGAIN, THE POSSIBILITY SIX, AND THE REDUCTION IN THE LIST OF BETTING OPTIONS I THINK WOULD BE THREE THAT STAND OUT TO ME ON THE POLICY SIDE.

AND THEN, THERE IS A WHOLE OTHER CATEGORY THAT WE REFERRED TO EARLIER ABOUT DESTAGMATIZATION, CONVERSATIONS THAT PARENTS NEED TO START HAVING WITH THEIR KIDS, PARTICULARLY THE YOUNG MEN, YOUNG BOYS, ABOUT GAMBLING, BECAUSE ALL OF THE MESSAGING THEY ARE GETTING ABOUT GAMBLING RIGHT NOW IS FROM KEVIN HART, AND LeBRON JAMES, AND CHARLES BARKLEY DURING COMMERCIALS AND IT IS TELLING THEM THAT GAMBLING IS REALLY, REALLY FUN, AND THAT THEY CAN WIN MONEY, AND THAT THEY ARE SO SMART, THEY KNOW ALL ABOUT SPORTS, AND THEY CAN TURN THAT HUTCH INTO MONEY.

I THINK THEY NEED SOME COUNTER PROGRAM, THEY NEED TO BE TOLD --FIRST OF ALL, THAT CASH GAMBLING CAN BE ADDICTIVE, AND SECOND OF ALL, WITHOUT ANY INTENTION ON THEIR PART, HOW THEY CAN SORT OF FALL DOWN THIS RABBIT HOLE AND DEVELOP REALLY, REALLY SEVERE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT WILL BE WITH THEM FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE.

>> JONATHAN COHEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AND FINALLY, TRIBUTES HAVE FLOWED ALL WEEK FOR "A FEARLESS STORYTELLER, WHO LAID BARE THE HARSH REALITIES OF APARTHEID THROUGH HIS PLAYS. "

THAT IS HOW SOUTH AFRICA'S CULTURE MINISTER IS PLAYING TRIBUTE TO PLAYWRIGHT AND DIRECTOR, WHOLE FUGUE ARE WHO DIED AT AGE 92 LAST WEEKEND.

WRITING MORE THAN 30 PLAYS DURING HIS CAREER, HE WAS BEST KNOWN FOR TITLES LIKE "THE BLOOD KNOCKS. "

IT IS THE FIRST PLAY IN SOUTH AFRICA WITH A BLACK AND WHITE ACTOR, WHICH FUGARD HIMSELF PERFORMED IN.

IT WAS AN UNFLINCHING LOOK AT HOW INSTITUTIONALIZED RACISM CONSUMED THOSE WHO LIVE UNDER IT.

HERE IS FUGARD SPEAKING ABOUT HIS PERFORMANCE, BACK IN 1985.

>> IN ORDER TO PLAY THAT ROLE, AND ARRIVE THERE, I WOULD NEED TO EXPLORE MYSELF FOR PREJUDICE, THAT I TRY TO KEEP AT BAY AT OTHER TIMES IN MY LIFE.

AND IT IS A LITTLE SCARY, AS AN EXPERIENCE.

YOU HAVE TO HAND MYSELF OVER, WITH TOTAL CONVICTION, WITH NO RESERVATIONS, TO HATE.

>> FUGARD'S LIFETIME OF WORK, HIS CONNECTION TO HIS HOMELAND, AND HIS SEARING MEDITATIONS ON HOW APARTHEID DESTROYED SOUTH AFRICA'S VERY HUMANITY RESONATED ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE, FROM NEW YORK.

> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ, AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

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