>> MANY OF YOU ARE LIKELY FAMILIARWITH THE GREATAMERICAN AUTHOR MARK TWAIN WHOSE MOSTFAMOUSWORKS INCLUDE "THE ADVENTURES OF TOMSAWYER" AND"THE ADVENTURES ORHUCKLEBERRY FINN. "

TWAIN WAS A COURAGEOUSADVOCATE FORRACIAL EQUALITY THROUGHOUT THE 1800s,USING HISWRITING TO ENTERTAIN AND INFORM THEWORLD.

WELL, NOW THEAUTHOR'S LIFE IS THE TOPIC FOR RONCHERNOW'S LATEST BOOK, AND HE JOINSWALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S A PURE DELIGHT TO BE HERE,WALTER.

THANK YOU.

>> IN YOUR GREATBIOGRAPHY OF MARK TWAIN THAT JUSTCAME OUT, YOU HAVE A SENTENCE NEARTHE BEGINNINGTHAT SAYS, WHAT ANY BIOGRAPHYOF MARK TWAIN DEMANDSIS HIS VOICE WHICH SPARKLED EVEN INHIS DARKEST MOMENTS.

MAN, THERE ARE A LOT OF DARK MOMENTSWITHIN THISBOOK, BUT THE PROS READ ALMOSTLIKE MARK TWAIN AND THE FLOWING OFTHE RIVER.

DIDYOU CONSCIOUSLY TRY TO MIMIC HIS VOICEIN SOME WAYS?

>> IDIDN'T TRY TOMIMIC HIS VOICE.

I'LL HAVE TO TELLYOU.

IT'S ROUGH ON THE EGO OF THEBIOGRAPHER TO BE WRITING ABOUT A WRITERTHAT'SGREATER THAN YOU ARE.

HAVING SPENTSIX YEARS WITH MARKTWAIN'S LANGUAGE AND HUMOR FLOWINGTHROUGH MY VEINS, MAYBEIT ELEVATED MY WRITING A LITTLE BIT.

I LIKE TO THINK THAT,BUT THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT.

I WAS NOT IN ANYWAY TRYING TO ADAPT MY WRITING TOIT.

ALTHOUGH I MUST TELL YOU THAT IFELT WRITING THIS BOOK, MYPROPOSE PROSE WAS A LITTLE BIT LOOSERAND FREER WHEN IWAS SAYING ABOUTULISS IS S. GRANT, YOU CAN'T HAVEA LOT OF FUN WITH THE PROS.

YOUFEEL LIKE YOU HAVE TOADOPT A FORMALAND SOLEMN PROSE,BUT I THINK MARK TWAIN HAD A LIBERATINGEFFECT ONME.

>> THE NONHUMAN CHARACTER IS THERIVER AND IT ALL FLOWS AND YOU HAVEA NARRATIVE THAT FLOWS LIKE A RIVER.

HOW IMPORTANTWAS HISCHILDHOOD IN HANNIBAL AND BECOMINGA RIVER PILOT?

>> HIS FAMILYMOVED TO HANNIBAL WHICH WAS RIGHTON THEMISSISSIPPI RIVER, AND THAT --HERE'STHIS REMOTEBACKWATER.

IT'S IN THE NORTHEAST CORNEROF MISSOURI.

SLAVE-OWNING FAMILY IN A SLAVE-OWNINGSTATE, BUT HE WOULD WALKOUT THE DOOR AND TURN TO HIS LEFTANDTHERE JUST A BLOCK OR TWO AWAY, WASTHISBROAD, SHINING, MAGNIFICENT RIVER,AND THE RIVERBROUGHT ALL THE WORLD INTOHIS LIFE BECAUSE THE STEAM BOATS WOULDDOCK.

IT WAS THEBIG EVENT OF THE DAY IN THE TOWN,AND OFF THESTEAM BOATS WOULD CORE EVERYTHINGFROMCIRCUSES TO MINSTREL SHOWS TO TRAVELINGSALESMENTO PASSENGERS.

SO IT CONNECTED HIMWITH AMUCH LARGER WORLD AND ITHINK IT GAVE HIM THIS, YOU KNOW,FANTASY OF ESCAPE FROMTHIS WORLD.

>> HE GREW UP IN A SLAVE-HOLDING FAMILY IN A SLAVE-HOLDINGSTATE, AND YET IN SOMEWAYS, HE WRITES WHAT IS THEGREATEST ANTI-SLAVERY BOOK IN THEENGLISH LANGUAGE AT LEAST.

YOU KNOW,"HUCKLEBERRY FINN".

IRONICALLY ITGETS BANNED SOMETIMES BECAUSE IT USESTHE "N" WORD.

TELL US ABOUT HIS EVOLUTION ON RACE.

WHEN DID HEREALIZE HOW ABHORRENT SLAVERY WAS?

>> HE WAS BORN INTO ASLAVE-OWNING FAMILY, SLAVE-OWNINGSTATE.

HE SAID THAT IN THE WORLD OF HIS CHILDHOOD,A UNIVERSAL STILLNESS RAINED ABOUTTHE EVILOF SLAVERY.

HE WAS TAUGHT INCHURCH NOT ONLY THAT SLAVERYWAS ACCEPTABLE, THAT SLAVERY WAS SACRED,AND A PECULIAR PET OF THE DEITY THATHE SAID.

WHEN HE'S A TEENAGER GOING THROUGHHIS LETTERS, IT'S FUEL OF CRUDE,RACIST LANGUAGE, EXACTLY WHAT YOUWOULD EXPECT FROM SOMEONEGROWING UP IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, BUTTHENWHEN --WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE'S IN HISEARLY 30s,HE WOOS AND WEDS A YOUNGHEIRESS FROM UPSTATE NEW YORK NAMEDLIBBY LANGDON, AND THE FAMILY BRINGSMUCH MORE THANJUST WEALTH INTO HIS LIFE BECAUSETHEY HADBEEN ABOLITIONISTS, ACTIVE ABOLITIONISTSON THEUNDERGROUND RAILROAD.

THEY KNEW FREDERICKDOUGLASS.

THEYHAD COMFORTED AND SHELTEREDFREDERICK DOUGLASS, AND SO MARK TWAIN'SVIEWSBEGINTO CHANGE AND CHANGE QUITE RADICALLY.

HIS FRIEND SAID THAT MARK TWAIN WASTHEMOST DE-SOUTHERNIZED SOUTHERNER THATHE MET BECAUSE HE REALLYRECREATES HIMSELF AS THISNORTHEASTERN LIBERAL LIVING IN A MANSIONIN HARTFORD,CONNECTICUT, BUT I TRIED VERY HARDIN THE BOOK BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCHCONTROVERSY ABOUTTWAIN AND RACE TO SHOW THISEXTRAORDINARY EVOLUTION OF HIS VIEWSFROMCRUDE, RACISM OF HIS YOUTH AND I THINKTHAT HE BECOMES THE MOSTENLIGHTENED AND TOLERANT OF ALL WHITEAUTHORS IN THE LATE 19th CENTURY.

HEDOES THINGS LIKE HE PAYS FOR THE LAWSCHOOL EDUCATION OFA BRILLIANT YOUNG BLACK LAW STUDENTNAMEDWARREN T. McWYNN ANDHE WRITES A LETTER TO THE DEAN OFTHE LAW SCHOOL IN WHICHHE SAYS --EXPLAIN YUGOSLAVIA --EXPLAININGWHYHE'S PAYING FOR THIS BLACK STUDENT.

HE SAID THE SHAME OF IT ISOURS,NOT THEIRS.

AND COMMENTING ON THISEPISODE, HIS CLOSE FRIEND SAID THATMARK TWAIN AS A WHITE MAN, HELD HIMSELFPERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEWHITE RACE HAD DONE TO THE BLACK RACE,ANDIN PAYING FOR THIS LAW STUDENT, HEFELT THAT HE WAS MAKINGHIS OWN FORM OF REPARATION TO THEBLACKRACE, AND HE ACTUALLY USED THAT WORD,REPARATION.

SO I DESCRIBE A LOT OF ACTIVITIESIN THE BOOKTHAT TWAIN DID ON BEHALF OF THE BLACKCOMMUNITY.

HE WAS AMAJOR PROMOTER FOR INSTANCE, OFTHE JUBILEE SINGERS.

IT WAS ANASHVILLE SCHOOL THAT HAD BEEN SETUP TO EDUCATEBLACKS BORN INTO SLAVERY AFTER THECIVIL WAR, ANDTWAIN ADORES THIS GROUP.

HE SAYS THEIR PLAYING OF MELODIESMOVED HIM LIKE NOTHING ELSE.

HE'S A MAJOR FORCE IN PROMOTING THEMAND THE SCHOOLS.

HE FELT SOSTRONGLY ABOUT THE CENTRALLY OF RACEAND SLAVERY THAT HE SAID THE BIRTHDAYOF AMERICAN LIBERTY WAS NOT1776, BUT 1865, THE YEAR THAT SLAVERYWASOUTLAWED, AND HE SAIDMOCKINGLY, SAID THE DECLARATION OFINDEPENDENCE SHOULDHAVE SAID THAT ALL WHITE MEN AREALL CREATED EQUAL.

SO HE BECOMES VERYADVANCED AND VERY OUTSPOKENON THIS ISSUE WHEREHIS VIEWS ARE VERY BENIGHTED EARLYON.

>> THAT'S THE POINT.

YOU TALK ABOUTHOW HE'S VERY ENLIGHTENED BY THEEND ON SLAVERY, BUT THERE'SAN EVOLUTION THAT HAPPENS, WHICH MAKESTHE BOOK INTERESTING.

THERE'SEVEN AN EVOLUTION, I THINK, FROM READINGTHE BOOK BETWEEN WRITING "TOM SAWYER,"AND WRITING"HUCKLEBERRY FINN" BECAUSETOM SAWYER HAS SORT OF THE CELEBRATIONOF THEANTI-BELLUM SOUTHWHEREAS HUCKLEBERRY FINN IS A DIFFERENTBOOK.

>> TOM SAWYER ISTHE DIFFERENTINTRODUCTION TO BOYHOOD ANDHE'STHIS FANT ASIST AND HE'S READING THESEBOOKS ANDMOON SHINE, AND IT'S A SUN LIT TOWNTHAT'S SCRUBBEDCLEAN OF SLAVERY.

HE THEN RETURNSTO THE TOWNOF HANNIBAL WHICH HE CALLS ST. PETERSBURG IN "HUCK FINN," AND FARAND AWAY, THE MOSTLIKABLE, NOTABLE --NOBLE FIGURE INTHEBOOK IS THE SLAVE,JIM, AND JIM IS DRAWNWITH GREAT AFFECTION, ANDDIGNITY, AND PRIDE.

THERE ARE,AS MANY PEOPLE POINTED OUT, CERTAINMINSTREL AFFECTATIONS THAT HE HASGRANTED ONTO THAT PORTRAIT.

IT'S NOT A PERFECT PORTRAIT, BUT ASHUCK AND JIM GO DOWN THE RIVER,ALL THESE SOUTHERN TOWNS FULL OF SOUTHERNWHITES THATTHEY'RE PASSING, THE SOUTHERN WHITESARE, YOUKNOW, VIOLENT AND CRUDE ANDPROFANE, AND THE FIGURE WHO STANDSUP ASTHE MOST NOBLE AND HUMANEFIGURE IS THE ONE MAIN BLACK FIGUREIN THE --INTHE STORY, JIM.

AND I KNOW, YOUKNOW, PERCIVAL EVERETT WROTE THISFANTASTIC BOOK CALLED"JAMES,"IN WHICH HE INTENDS TO GIVE A MUCHFULLER, RICHER PORTRAITOF JIM/JAMES, AND I DON'TTHINK THAT MARK TWAIN AS A WHITE MANWOULD HAVE BEEN CAPABLE OFCREATING SUCH A MULTI-DIMENSIONALFIGURE AT THAT TIME,MULTI-DIMENSIONAL AS HEDOES WITH HUCK FINN, SO WHAT I LIKEABOUT JAMES IS ITHINK THAT IT'S ACORRECTIVE TO "HUCK FINN",BUT IT'S NOT ADEBUNKING BOOK.

IN FACT, PERCIVALEVERETT WAS ASKED, WHAT DO YOUSAY TO PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BAN"HUCK FINN" FROM THE SCHOOLS?

HE SAYS,I SAY THEY'VE NEVER READTHE BOOK, YOU KNOW?

SO ITHINK THAT EVEN AS HE'S CORRECTINGMARK TWAIN,HE'S BEEN HONORING MARK TWAIN AT THESAME TIME, AND ALSO HE'S GOTAN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PEOPLE TO GOBACK AND READ"THE ADVENTURES OF HUCKLEBERRY FINN,"WHICH IS GREAT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU HAVEIN THE BOOK QUITE A BIT IS THIS DARKSIDE OF MARK TWAIN, AND THE DEPRESSIONHEHAD, AND HOW IT --AND YOU SAYSOME MYSTERIOUS ANGER, SOMEPERVASIVEMELANCHOLY FIRED HIS HUMOR.

DO YOUTHINK THAT THEDEPRESSION WAS SORT OF INTERTWINEDWITH WHY HE WAS AHUMORIST?

>> IT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION,WALTER.

I THINK THE ANSWER IS YES, YOU KNOW,THE IMAGE THAT THEAMERICANS HAVE OF MARK TWAIN IS OFA VERY CHARMING AND GENIAL MAN STANDINGUPTHERE IN A WHITE SUIT WITH THE CIGARSPOUTING WITTICISMS, AND THAT WASTRUE OF HISPUBLIC PERSONA.

UNDER THE SURFACE,HE WAS KIND OF OFTENVERY MOODY AND TEMPERAMENTAL.

HE HIMSELF SAID --HAD A VOLATILE TEMPERAMENTANDHE SAID THAT, MY EMOTIONS VEER FROMEXTREME TOEXTREME, AND I THINK AS I --THE DEEPERI GOT INTO THE BOOK, I FELTTHAT IN A WAY, HE FIT INTO ACERTAIN CLASSIC STEREOTYPE OF THEFUNNYMEN, THEFUNNYMEN WHO ISSAD, THE CLOWN WHO'S SAD UNDER THESURFACE, AND I THINK THAT HEWAS USING HIS HUMOR AS A WAYOF RELIEVING ALL OF THIS KIND OF DARKNESSAND ANGER THAT HE CARRIED FROM HISPAST.

HE WAS VERYHAUNTED BY HIS CHILDHOOD POVERTY.

HIS FATHER HAD FAILED INBUSINESS FIVE TIMES.

I THINK HE HADTHE DIFFICULTYWHEN HE WAS A CHILD.

HE HAD THIS VERY COLD AND DISTANTFATHER AND HE ONLYSAID TWO THINGS ABOUT HIS FATHER ANDTHEY'RE BOTH REVEALING.

HE SAID, OUR RELATIONSHIP AMOUNTEDTO A LITTLE MORE THANAN INTRODUCTION, AND THEN HE ALSOSAIDMY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY FATHER WASONE OF ARMED NEUTRALITY.

SO THERE WAS A KIND OF STUNTED EMOTIONALGROWTH THERE, AND THEDARKER THE TOPIC, THE FUNNIER MARKTWAIN WAS.

I MEAN, THERE'S SO MANY FUNNY LINESTHAT MARK TWAIN HAD ABOUT HIS OWNDEATH.

THE MOST FAMOUS ONE IS WHENHE SAID THAT --THE REPORTS OF HISDEATH WERE GREATLY EXAGGERATED, BUTTHEREWERE PLENTY THAT HE SAID, THE PRESSCALLED HIM UP AND SAID, THEREARE RUMORS YOU'RE DYING AND HE SAID,I WOULDDO NO SUCH THING AT MY TIME OF LIFE.

IT'S THE DARKER THEMATERIAL, THE FUNNIER HE WAS, ANDI THINKTHAT TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT WHYHIS HUMOR HAS BEEN SO LONG-LASTING.

>> WELL, ONE OF THECORE PARTS OF HIS HUMOR IS POKINGFUN ATTHE PRETENSIONS OF THE ELITE, ANDOF COURSE,HE COINS THE TERM "GILDEDAGE," WHICH IS WHATHE REFER TO THEERA OF ROBBERBARONS, AND WE SEEM TO BE IN ANEW GILDED AGE RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU SEETHIS RELEVANCEOF HIM TO OUR NEW GILDED AGE?

>> ITHINK THAT ISPART OF TWAIN'S FAILURE, RIGHT?

THE FIRST NOVEL WAS CALLED "GILDEDAGE," WITH CHARLES DUDLEY WARNER,AND HE TALKED ABOUT THERAMPANT MATERIALISM IN AMERICA.

HETALKED ABOUT OUR MORAL ULCERS, ANDHE SAIDVERY POWERFULTHINGS ABOUT THE ROBBER BARONS OFHIS OWN AGE.

HE SAIDOF JAY GOULD, HE SAID BEFORE HIM,AMERICANS DESIRED MONEY.

HE SAID,AFTERJAY GOULD, THEY BOWED DOWN AND WORSHIPPEDIT.

HE WROTE AN OPEN LETTER TOCOMMANDORE VANDERBILT AND HESAID, WHEN AN AMERICAN HAS SO MUCHWEALTH AND HAS MADE A GOD OFIT RATHER THAN HIS SERVANTS, AND WE'REGOING THROUGHA VERY SIMILAR PERIOD NOW OF HUMORINGABOUTTHIS BRILLIANTLY, ABOUT TREMENDOUSTECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATIONS,CREATINGHUGE NEW FORTUNES,CREATING EXTREMES OF INEQUALITY, BUTONETHING I HAVE TO POINT OUT, WALTER,IS THAT, YOU KNOW, MARK TWAINON PAPER ISALWAYS RAILING AGAINSTTHEPOLITICRATS,BUT HE NOT ONLY WANTED TO BE RICH.

HE WANTED TO BEFILTHY RICH.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OFPLACES THAT I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOKWHEREHE INVESTS IN DIFFERENTNEW TECHNOLOGIES, THAT HEIMAGINES HE'S GOING TO HAVE AGLOBAL MONOPOLY.

SO PEOPLE KIND OFHAVE THIS IDEA BECAUSE HE WAS ALWAYSSATIRIZING THERICH THAT HE HAD NO INTEREST IN BEINGRICH WHICH WAS EXACTLYTHE OPPOSITE OF THETRUTH.

ONE OF HIS BIOGRAPHERSSAID, THIS IS PROBABLY NEVER ANAMERICAN WRITER WHO WAS SO OBSESSEDWITHTHE CHINK AND RUSTLE AND LURE OF MONEYASMARK TWAIN.

>> OVER THE YEARS, THEDIFFERENT TYPES OFBIOGRAPHIES OF MARK TWAIN REFLECTSOMETIMES, THE CURRENT PERIOD WE'REIN.

>> YEAH.

>> I KNOW THAT, YOUKNOW, BERNARD DEVOTTO DID ONEBACK IN THE DEPRESSION, AND THEN JUSTINCAPLAN DOES "MR. CLEMENS AND MARKTWAIN,"WHICH SHOWS THE SCHIZOPHRENIA OF HISCHARACTER HEINVENTED IN THE WRITING HE DID.

HOWDO YOU SEEUS LOOKING ATTWAIN THROUGH THE LENS OF OUR CURRENTTIMES?

>> I THINK, WALTER, THAT MAYBETHE MOST IMPORTANT THING RIGHT NOWIS THAT MARK TWAIN WAS A FEARLESSANDCOURAGEOUS AND OUTSPOKEN FIGURE,THAT HE IN MANY WAYS,FUNCTIONEDAS THE CONSCIENCE OF AMERICAN SOCIETY,AND I THINK THAT HE HAD VIEWS ON ANUMBER OF TOPICSTHAT RESONATETODAYTHROUGH HIS PAT RIOTISM.

HE LAUGHED AT THAT GROTESQUE WORD,PATRIOTISM.

ITDROVE HIM THAT EXPRESSION, MY COUNTRY,RIGHT OR WRONG.

HE SAID, WE SHOULD SUPPORT OUR COUNTRYALL THE TIME AND OUR GOVERNMENT WHENIT DESERVES IT.

HE ALSO --THISRESONATES TODAY.

HE WAS VERY ALARMEDBY THEHYPERPARTISANSHIP OF HIS TIME.

ITGOT SO BAD, HEAD SAID, THAT IFTHE DEMOCRATS INCLUDED THE MULTIPLICATIONTABLE INTHEIR PLATFORM, THE REPUBLICANS WOULDVOTE IT DOWN AT THENEXT ELECTION.

SOUND FAMILIAR?

AND ALSO A SUBJECT DEAR TO US BOTH,HE WASA FIERCE DEFENDER OF THE FREEDOM OFTHE PRESS.

HE SAID THAT THEIRREVERENCE OF THE PRESS IS A CHAMPIONOFLIBERTY, AND IT'S A SURESTDEFENSE.

I THINK THE OUTSPOKEN QUALITIESVERY IMPORTANT AT THE MOMENT BECAUSEWE'RE LIVINGIN A MOMENT WHERE PEOPLE ON BOTH THELEFT AND THE RIGHT FEELVERY MUZZLED.

THEY FEEL FEARFUL OF EXPRESSING, YOUKNOW, THEIR TRUEOPINIONS.

MARK TWAIN HAD THAT WHENHE WAS YOUNGER.

HE WASALWAYS AFRAID THAT IF HE TOLD PEOPLEWHATHE REALLY FELT ABOUT POLITICS IN RELIGIONAND OTHER THINGS, THAT HEWOULD ALIENATE THIS LARGE READERSHIP,BUT WHATHAPPENS AS HE GETS OLDER,HE LETS IT RIP, ANDSUDDENLY, ALL THESE STRONGAND RADICAL VIEWS BEGIN TO EMERGE.

>> I ONCEHAD AN ATTITUDE, AND A WRITER WROTEINTHE MARGINS, IT WASALICE MAYHEW OFMAKING SURE YOU STUCK TO A CHRONOLOGY.

HOW IMPORTANT WAS KROCHRONOLOGY IN SHOWING THE BIRTH OFA PERSON YOU HAVEOF A SUBJECT?

>> CHRONOLOGY IS THEBACKBONE OF THE BOOK,AND YOU HAVE TO KIND OF PERIODICALLY,YOU KNOW, VEER OFF INTO THEMATICSTUFF, AND, YOU KNOW, GIVING A BACKGROUND,BUT I FEEL THAT THE CHRONOLOGY, NOTONLY GIVESA KIND OF PROPULSIVE, YOU KNOW, FORCETO THE BOOK, BUT I WANT TO SHOWTHIS PERSON AS IT WERE NOT JUST BEINGMARK TWAIN, BUTBECOMING MARK TWAIN.

I WANTTO SHOW HIM, YOU KNOW, UNFOLDING,AND HEIS SOMEONE WHO TRAVELS SO FAR FROMHIS ROOTS.

HE'S THIS BAREFOOT BOY FROM HANNIBAL.

HE ENDS UP BEING THE MOST WORLDLYANDWELL-TRAVELED AMERICAN AUTHOR.

WE TEND TO THINK HE WAS THEQUINTESSENTIAL AMERICAN.

HE SPENT11 YEARS OUTSIDE OF THE UNITEDSTATES, SO HE'S ACTUALLY THE MOSTCOSMOPOLITAN FIGURE AMONG AMERICANWRITERS, BUTFOR ME, YOU KNOW, THE JOY IS KINDOFLINING EVERYTHING UP CHRONOLOGICALLYSO THAT YOU CAN SEE THE CHANGES TAKINGPLACE, AND SOMETIMES THEY'RE ALMOSTIMPERCEPTIBLEFROM PAGE TO PAGE UNTIL YOU THEN SORTOFLOOK BACK, YOU KNOW, A CHAPTER ORLOOK BACK TEN CHAPTERS ANDYOU SEE JUST HOW MUCH THIS PERSONHAS GROWN, ANDIF IT'S AN INTERESTING FIGURE, ANDAN IMPORTANTFIGURE, THIS PERSON ENDS UPBEING SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE BEENALMOST UNIMAGINABLE EARLIER INTHE LIFE.

>> RON CHERNOW, THANK YOUSO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>IT'S BEEN A GREAT PLEASURE, WALTER.

THANK YOU.