>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE PROBLEM IS ON THE LEFT.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PROBLEM.

>> FALLOUT FROM CHARLIE KIRK'S MURDER, AS TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS ESCALATE THEIR ATTACKS ON POLITICAL OPPONENTS, WE'LL EXAMINE WHERE AMERICA GOES FROM HERE.

THEN -- CELEBRATIONS IN BRAZIL, AFTER FORMER PRESIDENT JAIR BOLSONARO IS FOUND GUILTY OF AN ATTEMPTED COUP.

WE HEAR FROM PETRA COSTA, WHO CLOSELY FOLLOWED BOLSONARO'S RISE AND FALL.

AND -- >> WHAT WE HAVE SEEN DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE THE BIGGEST CUTS EVER IN OUR FEDERAL NUTRITION ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS.

>> WILL ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

'S POLICY ACTUALLY MAKE AMERICA HEALTHY AGAIN?

HARI SREENIVASAN GETS THE DETAILS FROM FOOD SAFETY EXPERT SUSAN MAYNE.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

TYLER ROBINSON, THE SUSPECT IN THE SHOOTING OF CHARLIE KIRK, IS DUE TO APPEAR IN COURT TUESDAY.

ROBINSON IS NOT COOPERATING, ACCORDING TO UTAH GOVERNOR SPENCER COX, BUT INVESTIGATORS ARE POINTING TO DARK INTERNET CULTURE AS A FACTOR THAT POTENTIALLY RADICALIZED HIM.

MEANWHILE, FALLOUT FROM KIRK'S KILLING IS COURSING THROUGH AMERICAN POLITICS.

BOTH ONLINE AND IN REAL LIFE.

THE WHITE HOUSE AND ITS SUPPORTERS ARE CALLING FOR A CRACKDOWN ON POLITICAL OPPOSITION.

HERE'S WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF STEPHEN MILLER SPEAKING ON FOX NEWS.

>> THE LAST MESSAGE THAT CHARLIE KIRK GAVE TO ME BEFORE HE JOINED HIS CREATOR IN HEAVEN WAS, HE SAID THAT WE HAVE TO DISMANTLE AND TAKE ON THE RADICAL LEFT ORGANIZATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT ARE FOMENTING VIOLENCE.

THE POWER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEADERSHIP WILL BE USED TO FIND YOU, BE USED TO TAKE AWAY YOUR MONEY, TAKE AWAY YOUR POWER, AND IF YOU'VE BROKEN THE LAW, TAKE AWAY YOUR FREEDOM.

>> HERE TO DISCUSS, DAVID FRUM, AUTHOR AND STAFF WRITER AT THE ATLANTIC.

DAVID FRUM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> A DARK MOMENT FOR THIS COUNTRY.

I WOULD IMAGINE YOU'RE NOT ALTOGETHER SURPRISED, BOTH WITH THE IN CREASE OF THE RHETORIC.

CHARLIE KIRK, AS WE KNOW, HAS BEEN CAST AS A MARTYR FROM HIS SUPPORTERS.

HE HAS 20 MILLION NEW FO UL FOLLOWERS.

TURNING POINT USA REPORTING TENSE OF THOUSANDS OF NEW CHAPTER INQUIRIES.

TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THIS MOMENT MEANS FOR THE FUTURE OF HIS MOVEMENT, FIRST, BEFORE WE GET TO THE BIGGER IMPACT.

>> A LIFE THAT MEANT A GREAT DEAL TO A GREAT MANY PEOPLE WAS CRUELLY TAKEN AWAY.

A FAMILY HAS BEEN LEFT WITHOUT A FATHER AND A HUSBAND.

SO, TEMPERS RUN HOT AND PEOPLE SAY THINGS THAT PERHAPS IN --AT A DIFFERENT MOMENT, THEY WOULD NOT SAY.

BUT HERE'S WHERE WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL AS A SOCIETY AND AS A REPUBLIC.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALREADY, A LONG HABIT, OF ATTACKING THE POLITICAL RIGHTS OF PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH HIM.

IN APRIL, PRESIDENT TRUMP AT HIS OWN PERSONAL INITIATIVE, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN, ORDERED A JUDICIAL INVESTIGATION, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, OF THE MAIN DEMOCRATIC SMALL DOLLAR DONATION ARM ACT BLUE.

PRESIDENTS AREN'T SUPPOSED TO DIRECT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO INVESTIGATE ANYBODY, MUCH LESS A POLITICAL ORGANIZATION, BUT HE DID IT.

YOU NOW HERE IN THE WAKE OF THIS TERRIBLE CRIME, AS YOU SHOWED WITH STEPHEN MILLER, PEOPLE AROUND THE PRESIDENT --THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, IN HIS NATIONAL TELEVISED ADDRESS, THREATENING TO USE THE POWER OF THE STATE TO ATTACK NOT CRIMINALS, BUT PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT VIEWS.

PEOPLE WHO ARE ORGANIZING AGAINST HIM.

PEOPLE ARE FUND-RAISING IN ORDER TO CHALLENGE THE PRESIDENT'S CONTROL OF CONGRESS.

ALL OF THIS AT A TIME WHEN THE PRESIDENT'S PARTY IS ENGAGED IN REDISTRICTING, APART FROM THE USUAL SCHEDULE, WHEN TROOPS HAVE BEEN DEPLOYED IN THE STREETS OF BLUE CITIES, INCLUDING THE ONE I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM TODAY.

>> DAVID FRENCH HAS A VERY MOVING, I THINK, AND SOBERING PIECE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" TODAY, THERE ARE MONSTERS IN YOUR MIDST, TOO.

HERE'S WHAT HE WROTE.

IF WE'RE CONVINCED POLITICAL VIOLENCE COMES FROM ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE DIVIDE, THE TEMPTATION BETWEEN PUNITIVE AUTHORITARIANISM IS OVERWHELMING.

THEY ARE EVIL AND VIOLENT AND THEY MUST BE CRUSHED.

IF, HOWEVER, WE ACCURATELY UNDERSTAND THAT AMERICA HAS AN IMMENSE PROBLEM WITH VIOLENT EXTREMISM ON BOTH SIDES OF THE IDEOLOGICAL AISLE, EVEN IF AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT ONE SIDE IS WORSE THAN THE OTHER, THEN THE ANSWER LIES IN RECONCILIATION.

NOT DOMINATION.

IN FACT, IT'S THE WILL TO DOMINATE THAT IES THE CRISIS.

I'M WONDERING IF YOU AGREE WITH DAVID'S ASSESSMENT HERE, AND THE SIGNIFICANCE FROM AT LEAST WHAT WE'VE HEARD THUS FAR FROM LEADERSHIP'S RHETORIC, I'M SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE PRESIDENT, THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO MATCH HIS TAKEAWAY.

>> DAVID FRENCH IS A BEAUTIFUL WRITER AND HE HAS WISE THOUGHTS, BUT THE ISSUE I'M CONCERNED ABOUT TODAY IS NOT WHO IS MORE VIOLENTLY EXTREME.

I MEAN, I THINK IT'S A MEANINGLESS QUESTION.

WHAT YOU TEND TO FIND IS THAT AMERICANS, IN THIS COUNTRY, WHO DO VIOLENT EXTREMISM HAVE VERY MUDDLED VIEWS.

WE'RE GOING TO --AMERICAN EXTREMISM LOOKS LIKE JOHN HINCKLEY, SHOOTING A PRESIDENT, ATTEMPTING TO MURDER HIM, TO IMPRESS A MOVIE ACTRESS.

THAT'S NOT A RATIONA L POLITICAL PLAN.

WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT, THE PRESIDENT AND HIS SUPPORTERS LOOK TO GO AFTER NOT VIOLENT EXTREMISTS, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE FUNDING TO DEFEAT THEM IN ELECTIONS.

THE GREAT QUESTION THAT'S BEEN HAUNTING AMERICA IS WILL THE PRESIDENT ALLOW THE 2026 MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO BE FREE AND FAIR?

WILL HE TRY TO GERRYMANDER?

WILL HE TRY TO USE THE POWER OF GOVERNMENT TO STOP HIS OPPONENTS FROM FUND RAISING?

WILL HE TRY TO DETAIN PEOPLE WOULD DUE PROCESS AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE CAMPAIGNING AGAINST HIM?

THOSE ARE THE ISSUES THAT YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT VIOLENT EXTREMISM TODAY.

TODAY, WHAT WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT, WILL WE HAVE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS?

AS THE PRESIDENT SAID IN HIS ADDRESS, THAT'S THE TARGET THEY'RE AFTER.

>> HOW DOES KIRK'S ASSASSINATION DIRECTLY, IN YOUR VIEW, PLAY A ROLE IN THIS PLAN THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT, THAT YOU SAY IS GROWING INCREASINGLY OBVIOUS FROM THE RHETORIC FROM THE PRESIDENT AND HIS ADVISERS?

>> LOOK, AFTER A TERRIBLE CRIME, IN THE INTERNET AGE, YOU WILL FIND ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE OR BOTS ON THE INTERNET SAYING THINGS THAT ARE REP REHENCIVE, STUPID, UNFEELING.

AND PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCE THE WORLD THROUGH ONLINE LIFE WILL SEE THOSE STATEMENTS AND WILL HAVE NATURAL REACTIONS.

OF COURSE YOU GET --IF YOU LIKED AND ADMIRED CHARLIE KIRK, YOU WILL BE HURT BY SOMEONE WHO MAKES LIGHT OF THE TERRIBLE MURDER.

AND THAT FEELING OF HURT IS A POWERFUL RESOURCE FOR A PRESIDENT WHO IS AFRAID HE'S GOING TO LOSE THE 2026 ELECTIONS IF THEY'RE FREE AND FAIR, AND WHO HAS BEEN LOOKING FROM THE BEGINNING FOR WAYS TO MAKE SURE THOSE ELECTIONS ARE NOT FREE AND FAIR.

SO, THE EMOTIONS OF CHARLIE KIRK SUPPORTERS ARE A RESOURCE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND STEPHEN MILLER AND THOSE AROUND HIM ARE HOPING TO USE, NOT AGAINST CRIMINALS, BUT JUST AGAINST PEOPLE WHO WANT TO VOTE A DIFFERENT WAY.

>> SO, YOU SEEM TO BE CIRCLING ALL BACK TOWARDS DEMOCRACY AT HAND RIGHT NOW, AND CONCERNS ABOUT FREE AND JUST AND FAIR ELECTIONS.

THE CONVERSATION IN THE NATION SEEMS TO BE MORE FOCUSED ON POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING THAT SOME OF THESE OTHERS THAT ARE FOCUSING JUST ON THE AFTERMATH OF THIS ASSASSINATION, ARE NOT?

>> WHAT I'M SEEING IS A PATTERN - -LOOK, I'M SEEING A PATTERN FROM THIS PRESIDENT, STARTING WITH THE APRIL PERSONALLY DIRECTED INITIATIVE AGAINST ACT BLUE, TO INTERFERE WITH THE POLITICAL PROCESS.

FOR SURE, THE UNITED STATES SHOULD DO MORE TO STOP POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

THAT -- ALTHOUGH THE KILLER OF CHARLIE KIRK DID NOT USE A WEAPON THAT WOULD BE CONTROLLED BY ANY GUN CONTROL REGIME, OBVIOUSLY, YOU NEED TO --ONE WAY TO MAKE THE COUNTRY LESS VIOLENT IS MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO GET WEAPONS THAT CAN DO HARM.

THAT'S --THAT WOULD BE A BIG STEP.

AND YOU NEED AN FBI RUN BY COMPETENT PEOPLE AND YOU NEED, YOU KNOW, NOT TO HAVE POLITICAL HACKS AT THE TOP OF THE FBI AND YOU NEED NOT TO FIRE ALL THE COUNTERTERRORISM FORCE, YOU KNOW, UNDOING THE DAMAGE DONE BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE FBI, WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO REDUCE POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS MAKING IT VERY CLEAR THAT WHAT THEY ARE TELLING THE COUNTRY WHAT THEY INTEND TO DO, IT IS NOT JUST THE VIOLENT WHO ARE BEING TARGETED HERE.

OF COURSE THE VIOLENT SHOULD BE TARGETED.

THEY ARE TARGETING PEOPLE WHO THINK DIFFERENTLY, WHO SPEAK DIFFERENTLY, WHO WANT TO GIVE MONEY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID HE WANTS TO PUT GEORGE SOROS IN PRISON.

FOR WHAT?

>> YEAH, HE'S NOW FLEETING A RICO CASE AGAINST SOROS, WHICH SOROS HAS DENIED THE ACCUSATIONS THERE.

THE PRESIDENT'S ALSO FRAMING THIS AS THE RADICAL LEFT IDEOLOGY, IS THE PURE EVIL IN THIS COUNTRY.

THERE'S POWER IN THOSE WORDS, AND I THINK THEY'RE POINTING TO AT LEAST SOME OF THE EARLY EVIDENCE THAT WE'RE HEARING IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE FROM CHARLIE KIRK'S ASSASSIN.

I WANT TO PLAY SOUND FROM KASH PATEL, THE FBI DIRECTOR, WHEN ASKED ABOUT WHAT MORE THEY'RE LEARNING IN THIS INVESTIGATION.

>> HIS FAMILY HAS COLLECTIVELY TOLD INVESTIGATORS THAT HE SUBSCRIBED TO LEFT WING IDEOLOGY AND EVEN MORE SO IN THESE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

AND HE HAD A TEXT MESSAGE EXCHANGE, HE, THE SUSPECT, WITH ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL, IN WHICH HE CLAIMED THAT HE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE OUT CHARLIE KIRK AND HE WAS GOING TO DO IT, BECAUSE OF HIS HATRED FOR WHAT CHARLIE STOOD FOR.

THOSE ARE FACTUALLY ACCURATE INVESTIGATORY FINDINGS BY THE FBI THAT WE'VE HANDED OVER TO THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND THE FEDERAL AUTHORITIES TO MAKE THEIR PROSECUTORIAL DECISIONS.

>> SO, ASSUMING THAT IS ALL FACTUALLY ACCURATE, DOES THAT PLAY A ROLE IN -- >> WHY?

WHY WOULD I ASSUME THAT SOMETHING THAT KASH PATEL WAS FACTUALLY ACCURATE.

IT MIGHT BE, IT COULD BE.

BUT KASH PATEL HAS A LONG RECORD IN PUBLIC LIFE, NO, I WOULDN'T ASSUME THAT WHAT HE SAYS IS ACCURATE.

BUT ON THE HYPOTHESIS, IF IT IS --IF IT IS ACCURATE, WE ARE ALL WAY TOO EARLY TO MAKE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE KILLER.

BUT MY GUESS, AND IT'S JUST A GUESS, WE'LL FIND OUT THE KILLER'S POLITICS ARE A MUDDLE.

AND THE KILLER WAS A TROUBLED PERSON WHO DID A TERRIBLE THING FOR HIS OWN PARTICULAR REASONS.

AND THE PROJECT OF SAYING, WE'VE GOT A KILLER, AND NOW WE'RE GOING TO CONNECT THE KILLER TO A SO-CALLED RADICAL LEFT, AND NOW WE'RE GOING TO CONNECT THIS RADICAL LEFT, BY THE WAY, WHO TRIED TO DEFEAT JOE BIDEN AND DEFEAT KAMALA HARRIS, TAKE THIS RADICAL LEFT AND TIE THEM TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO STOP DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES FROM RAISING MONEY FOR THE 2026 ELECTION, THAT'S THE BOOT STRAPPING.

WE'LL FIND OUT MORE ABOUT WHAT THE KILLER INTENDED TO DO --I THINK IT'S PREMATURE TO COMMENT UNTIL YOU HAVE MORE INFORMATION THAN JUST WHAT KASH PATEL IS OFFERING.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, UNDERSTAND, THE TARGET HERE IS NOT KILLERS.

THAT'S THE FBI'S PROPER JOB.

WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS TARGETING DEMOCRATIC FUND-RAISING, GEORGE SOROS AND HIS OPERATION, WHO ARE THERE TO ELECT PEOPLE WHO WILL CONTAIN THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENT IN THE 2026 ELECTIONS.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO STOP.

>> AND FORMAL CHARGES AGAINST TYLER ROBINSON WILL BE FILED, MADE PUBLIC TOMORROW.

WE DID HEAR, THOUGH, FROM THE GOVERNOR OF UTAH, NOTE THAT THE SUSPECT'S PARTNER WAS TRANS, THOUGH THEY BELIEVE COMPLETELY UNINVOLVED AND IS COOPERATING, WHILE ROBINSON IS NOT.

AGAIN, THIS PLAYS INTO SOME OF THE TALKING POINTS THAT WE'VE HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT.

IF THEY DO SHOW CONCRETE PROOF OF THIS TOMORROW IN THE CHARGES, IN THE FORMAL CHARGES, DO YOU THINK THAT THIS ADDS MORE TO THE PRESIDENT'S CASE AGAINST WHAT THEY CONTINUE TO TARGET AS RADICAL LEFT IDEOLOGY?

DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT?

>> I -- I WANT TO BE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT SAYING THINGS ABOUT MY ONLY SOURCE OF INFORMATION HAVE GIVE ME AMPLE REASON NOT TO - - >> DOES THAT INCLUDE THE GOVERNOR?

>> NO, THAT INCLUDES -- >> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF HIS ROLE?

>> I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE COMMENTING TOO MUCH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY UNTIL WE HAVE BETTER AND FULLER EVIDENCE THAT IS NOT --DOESN'T --AGAIN, I HAVE TREMENDOUS CONFIDENCE IN GOVERNOR COX, BUT WE KNEAD NEED TO BE REAL CAREFUL.

WE ARE BEING FED PIECES OF INFORMATION THAT ARE OFTEN BEING DIRECTED FOR A LARGER POLITICAL PURPOSE.

THE PRIZE THAT PEOPLE NEED TO KEEP THEIR EYE ON IS WHILE PUNISHING THE GUILTY, AND ANYBODY WHO HAS HAD ANY KIND OF CRIMINAL CONNECTION TO THIS CRIME, ANYBODY WHO HAD FORE KNOWLEDGE OR WAS IN ASSISTANCE, ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO BE SWEPT INTO THE FBI INVESTIGATION, PROSECUTED IF IT'S JUSTIFIED, PUNISHED IF IT'S CALLED FOR --CONVICTED IF IT'S CALLED FOR, PUNISHED IF THEY'RE CONVICTED, THAT GOES WITHOUT SAYING.

BUT WHAT WE ARE TOLD --THE THING WE'RE BEING TOLD OF PEOPLE OF POWER TO DO IS THEY ARE GOING FOR A MUCH BIGGER PROJECT HERE THAN SIMPLY PUNISHING THE GUILTY AND THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH THE GUILTY.

THEY WANT TO SHUT DOWN FUND-RAISING PROCESSES THAT ARE USED FOR DEMOCRATIC PURPOSES TO CONTAIN THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENT.

THAT'S THE TARGET.

AND THAT IS --THAT IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID ON TELEVISION.

AND THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY.

>> SO, WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE, IN YOUR VIEW?

>> TO WHAT?

>> TO WHAT YOU THINK THE ADMINISTRATION IS ULTIMATELY TRYING TO DO HERE?

>> I THINK THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE IS WHILE CONDEMNING CRIMES, WHILE GRIEVING WITH THE AFFLICTED FAMILY, WHILE UNDERSTANDING THE GENUINE HURT AND OUTRAGE THAT PEOPLE WHO ADMIRED CHARLIE KIRK FEEL AT HIS LOS, LOSS, YOU CAN FEEL THEIR SUFFERING AND IMAGINE HOW, IF SOMEONE YOU ADMIRED WERE STRUCK DOWN IN THIS WAY, HOW YOU WOULD FEEL, AND THE SYMPATHY AND THE DISCRETION AND DECORUM YOU WOULD EXPECT IN THE AFTERMATH OF SUCH A DEATH, WHILE UNDERSTANDING ALL OF THAT, SAY, THE BRIGHT LINE HERE IS THAT YOU CANNOT USE THE POWER OF THE STATE TO SHUT DOWN POLITICAL PARTICIPATION, AND THAT ACTION OF THE PRESIDENT IN APRIL WHERE HE PERSONALLY DIRECTED THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO GO AFTER A DEMOCRATIC FUN RAISING PLATFORM, THAT'S A THING TO WATCH.

WHILE HE'S TALKING, KEEP YOUR EYE ON HOW HIS FINGERS ARE MOVING.

ANY KIND OF GAME OF DECEPTION.

THE LINE OF PATTERN IS AND THE MOVEMENT OF THE HANDS ARE DIFFERENT THINGS AND BOTH NEED TO BE WATCHED.

>> DAVID, IT WAS NOTABLE THAT WE HEARD FROM ALL FORMER LIVING PRESIDENTS, CONDEMNING THE ASSASSINATION OF CHARLIE KIRK, AND ASKING FOR UNITY AT THIS TIME, INCLUDING YOUR FORMER BOSS, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH.

YOU KNOW, TIMES ARE QUITE DIFFERENT, BUT THE ISSUE OF POLARIZATION, EVEN BACK THEN WHEN YOU WERE WORKING FOR THE ADMINISTRATION, WERE FRONT AND CENTER, AS WELL.

THIS IS BEFORE SOCIAL MEDIA, OBVIOUSLY, AND ALL OF THE AMPLIFIERS THAT WE'VE NOW SEEN MAKING THIS PROBLEM EVEN MORE SEVERE THAN IT WAS THEN.

WHAT --WHAT DO YOU THINK, BACK TO YOUR TIME IN OFFICE, AND PERHAPS ANY WORLDS OF WISDOM THAT YOU CAN HARKEN WITH US NOW?

FROM YOUR DAYS THERE?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT WAS --THAT WAS A QUARTER CENTURY AGO.

BACK THEN, IF SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE WHOM YOU'D NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE, SAID SOMETHING STUPID, OFFENSIVE, UNFEELING, IT WAS HARD TO FIND OUT ABOUT IT.

YOU DIDN'T GET MAD ABOUT --LOOK, IT'S A COUNTRY OF 330 MILLION PEOPLE, THE ODDS ARE PRETTY HIGH THAT SOMEBODY IS DOING SOMETHING COMPLETELY REPULSIVE.

EACH OF US CAN SEE EVERY BAD, FOOLISH, UNWISE, UNKIND, UNCARING THING THAT ANYBODY ANYWHERE SAYS.

AND TAKE IT TO HEART AND HAVE A REACTION TO IT.

WHEN YOU NEED TO SAY, WHAT IS THE PRESIDENT SAYING?

WHAT ARE THE SENATORS SAYING?

WHAT ARE THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS SAYING?

IT'S JUST A DEAD CERTAIN CINCH THAT THERE IS SOMEONE IN THE COUNTRY THAT IS SAYING SOMETHING RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD REALLY MAKE YOU CRAZY IF YOU HEARD THEM SPEAK.

NOW THERE'S THIS CONVEYER BELT WHERE YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT THAT PERSON.

25 YEARS AGO, YOU WOULD GO TO YOUR GRAVE AND BE HAPPIER FOR NOT KNOWING.

>> YEAH, AND THAT'S ALL AMPLIFIED ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

WE KNOW THE ALGORITHMS ARE FOCUSED NOW TO GIVE YOU MORE OF THE INSIGHTFUL RHETORIC THAT YOU'RE WANTING TO HEAR OR AGREE WITH, THE FACT - - >> TELL THE ALGORITHM YOU WANT PUPPY AND BABY VIDEOS AND NOTHING ELSE.

>> OR JUST PUT YOUR PHONE DOWN.

THAT WOULD HELP, TOO.

ALL RIGHT, DAVID FRUM, I COULD TALK TO YOU ABOUT PUPPIES IN PARTICULAR ALL DAY LONG.

HOPEFULLY THE NEXT SEGMENT.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>> ALL RIGHT.

> >> NOW, IN A LANDMARK RULING BRAZIL'S FORMER LEADER JAIR BOLSONARO HAS BEEN SENTENCED TO MORE THAN 27 YEARS IN PRISON AFTER BEING FOUND GUILTY OF PLOTTING AN ATTEMPTED COUP IN 2022.

PRESIDENT LULA TOOK TO THE PAGES OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THIS WEEKEND, SAYING HOW PROUD HE IS OF THE SUPREME COURT, WHILE ALSO ADDRESSING PRESIDENT TRUMP DIRECTLY, MAKING IT CLEAR THAT BRAZIL'S DEMOCRACY AND SOVEREIGNTY ARE, QUOTE, NONNEGOTIABLE.

A SUPPORTER OF THE FORMER BRAZILIAN LEADER, THE U. S. PRESIDENT HAS CALLED BOLSONARO'S TRIAL A WITCH HUNT AND PRESSURED BRAZIL TO DROP THE CASE, BY IMPOSING 50% TARIFFS.

HERE'S HIS REACTION TO THE RECENT SONARO VERDICT.

>> I THOUGHT HE WAS A GOOD PRESIDENT OF BRAZIL, AND IT'S VERY SURPRISING THAT THAT COULD HAPPEN, THAT'S VERY MUCH LIKE THEY TRIED TO DO WITH ME, BUT THEY DIDN'T GET AWAY WITH IT, AT ALL.

>> SO, HOW DOES THIS IMPACT THE NATION AND ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.S.?

PETRA COSTA IS A DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER WHO HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THIS STORY CLOSELY AND JOINING ME NOW LIVE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FIRST, LET'S JUST NOTE HOW HISTORIC THIS RULING IS.

BRAZIL HAS A LONG HISTORY OF COUPS, BUT I BELIEVE THIS IS THE FIRST ONE WHERE SOMEONE HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF TRYING TO PERPETRATE AND PLOT ONE.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE JUDICIAL INSTITUTION AS A WHOLE IN THE COUNTRY?

>> WELL, IT IS A VERY HISTORIC RULING, I WOULD SAY THE MOST HISTORIC RULING IN BRAZILIAN HISTORY.

AND IT --IT'S GREAT THAT BRAZIL JUST SUCCEEDED, WHERE AMERICA FAILED, BRINGING A FORMER PRESIDENT THAT TRIED TO ASSAULT THE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS INTO TRIAL AND CONDEMNING HIM.

AND AS YOU SAID, BRAZIL NEVER TRIED THE MILITARY FOR THE COUPS.

THEY DID SEVERAL COUPS, THE LAST ONE IN '64, THAT LASTED 21 YEARS, AND IN WHICH NONE OF THE MILITARY WERE PUNISHED FOR THEIR KILLINGS OR THEIR TORTURE.

SO, IT'S A CIVILIZATIONAL THRESHOLD FOR BRAZIL.

>> FOR VIEWERS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN FOLLOWING SO CLOSELY, WHAT EXACTLY HAS BOLSONARO BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF?

>> FOR CONSPIRING TO --FOR A COUP.

THAT, IF SUCCESSFUL, WOULD HAVE PREVENTED LULA FROM RISING --ASSUMING POWER AS PRESIDENT, AND WOULD ALSO HAVE KILLED LULA, HIS VICE PRESIDENT, AND THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

TOGETHER WITH BOLSONARO, TOP MILITARY GENERALS WERE ALSO CONDEMNED, BECAUSE THIS COUP ATTEMPT WAS ACTUALLY PRINTED IN BOLSONARO'S --THE PRESIDENTIAL OFFICE, SO, AS WELL AS SEVERAL OTHER EDDS VIDENCES THAT WAS FOUND.

THEY'RE PORTRAYED IN OUR FILM, "APOCALYPSE IN THE TROPICS," WHICH IS BOLSONARO'S SPEECH ON SEPTEMBER 27th, 2021, WHERE HE DEFIES THE SUPREME COURT, SAYS HE WILL NO LONGER OBEY ANY OF THEIR ORDERS, AND INCITES HIS PROTESTERS TO CALL FOR A MILITARY COUP.

SO, THAT SPEECH IS USED AS EVIDENCE BY THE PROSECUTOR, AND WHAT WE FOUND IN OUR FILM WAS THAT WHILE HE WAS MAKING THAT SPEECH, THERE WAS A PASTOR WHO WAS HIS CLOSE ALLY, WHO WAS ACTUALLY MOUTHING HIS WORDS, A PASTOR WHO WAS VERY CLOSE ALLY TO BOLSONARO AND ACTUALLY A MENTOR, POLITICAL MENTOR, THAT RECENTLY INVESTIGATIONS HAVE ALSO SHOWN HOW HE WAS TRYING TO MANIPULATE BOLSONARO HAS TO HOW TO RESPOND TO TRUMP.

>> AND WE KNOW BOLSONARO HAS DENIED ALL OF THESE CHARGES AND SAYS HE HAD NO INFORMATION, NO ROLE IN PLANNING THIS COUP.

THEY'RE PLANNING TO APPEAL, AS WELL.

HE SAYS THERE WAS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, THAT ONE OF THE JUDGES ACTUALLY USED TO REPRESENT PRESIDENT LULA, BUT WITH ONLY ONE JUDGE ON THIS PANEL SIDING IN HIS FAVOR, OR AGAINST THESE CHARGES, THE LIKELIHOOD OF AN APPEAL ACTUALLY BEING SUCCESSFUL ARE VERY LOW.

DO YOU THINK HE WILL, AT THE END OF THE DAY, SPEND MUCH TIME BEHIND BARS, THOUGH?

>> WELL, IT'S HARD TO KNOW.

WHAT IS HAPPEN IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW IS THAT BOLSONARO'S SUPPORTERS ARE TRYING TO ARTICULATE AN AMNESTY, A FORGIVENESS, FOR ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THE COUP ATTEMPT.

BUT IT --NOW I THINK IT IS UNLIKELY THAT THAT PERSPECTIVE WILL BE VICTORIOUS, AND -- AND THAT HE WILL SERVE TIME IN PRISON, AT LEAST UNTIL THE NEXT ELECTION, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY FOR HOW LONG.

>> WELL, THE PARALLELS WITH DONALD TRUMP ARE STRIKING, BOTH IN THE EVENTS, AS THEY'VE UNFOLDED, AND ALSO LISTENING TO TRUMP'S STRONG DEFENSE OF SOMEONE HE CALLS BEING TARGETED, CALLING THIS A WITCH HUNT, AND CALLING A CLOSE FRIEND.

AND THEN, ON TOP OF THAT, SLAPPING 50% TARIFFS ON BRAZIL RIGHT NOW, IN RESPONSE TO THIS, EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW BRAZIL, THERE'S A SURPLUS BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.

THE PRESIDENT HAD ALWAYS BEEN FOCUSED ON WHERE THE U. S. HAS A TRADE DEFICIT.

THERE'S ACTUALLY A SURPLUS HERE.

NONETHELESS, HE'S DEFENDING THAT TARIFF, AND SAYING PERHAPS EVEN MORE RETALIATION WILL COME.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE 50% TARIFF ON THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN.

>> BECAUSE I'M ABLE TO DO IT.

NOBODY ELSE WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT.

PRESIDENT BOLSONARO IS A GOOD MAN.

I'VE GOTTEN TO KNOW A LOT OF PRIME MINISTERS AND PRESIDENTS, AND KINGS AND QUEENS.

AND I KNOW, I'M PRETTY GOOD AT THIS.

PRESIDENT BOLSONARO IS NOT A DISHONEST MAN.

HE LOVES THE PEOPLE OF BRAZIL.

HE FOUGHT HARD FOR THE PEOPLE OF BRAZIL.

HE NEGOTIATED TRADE DEALS AGAINST ME FOR THE PEOPLE OF BRAZIL.

AND HE WAS VERY TOUGH.

AND HE WAS TOUGH BECAUSE HE --HE WANTED TO DO A GOOD DEAL FOR HIS COUNTRY.

HE WAS NOT A DOES HONEST MAN.

AND I BELIEVE IT'S A WITCH HUNT, AND IT SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING.

>> WE KNOW THAT BOLSONARO'S SUPPORTERS INCLUDING FAMILY MEMBERS HAD REALLY BEEN ADVOCATING FOR THIS KIND OF PUBLIC RESPONSE AND DEFENSE OF HIS FATHER, HIS SON HAD ACTUALLY MOVED TO THE UNITED STATES AND TEXAS, AND REALLY TRYING TO RALLY AN APPEAL AND SUPPORT, AS WELL.

HOW HAS THE REACTION BEEN FROM THOSE IN BRAZIL TO THE UNUSUAL ROLE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN IN DEFENDING POLL BOLSONARO HERE?

>> WELL, IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF POLITICAL BACKFIRING, BECAUSE BOLSONARO'S SON LEFT HIS SEAT IN CONGRESS TO LOBBY IN THE UNITED STATES IN FAVOR OF HIS FATHER BEFORE HIS FATHER WAS EVEN TRIED.

AND WAS SUCCESSFUL IN JULY, TRUMP CALLED IT A WITCH HUNT AND IMPOSED THE TARIFFS, BUT IT BACKFIRED, BECAUSE THE POPULATION STARTED TO SEE IT AS POLITICAL INTERFERENCE FROM A FOREIGN COUNTRY, INTO WHAT SHOULD BE BRAZIL'S SOVEREIGNTY, TO DECIDE.

IF TRUMP WAS SUCCESSFUL IN HIS INTERFERENCE WITH THE SUPREME COURT, HE WOULD BASICALLY BE GOVERNING BRAZIL AT THIS MOMENT.

THANKFULLY, THE SUPREME COURT MAINTAINED ITS SOVEREIGNTY AND ITS INDEPENDENCE AND DECIDED THAT -- WHAT WAS BEST FOR BRAZILIAN DEMOCRACY, WHICH IS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO FOR ITS OWN DEMOCRACY, SO IT'S INTERESTING THAT WE SEE THE SOUTHERN COUNTRY OF THE HEMISPHERE GIVING LESSONS OF POLITICAL MATURITY.

>> AND HOW IS THIS DEFIANCE AND REALLY IN YOUR FACE REACTION FROM PRESIDENT LULA BEING INTER PRETTIED IN BRAZIL RIGHT NOW, TAKING TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," AND WRITING THIS OP-ED OVER THE WEEKEND, ALSO SUGGESTING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD HAVE BEEN CONVICTED IF HE HAD BEEN CHARGED FOR DOING WHAT HE DID HERE, WAS ACCUSED OF DOING HERE ON JANUARY 6th, IN BRAZIL.

AND HERE'S --I'D LIKE TO PLAY WHAT HE TOLD CHRISTIANE ABOUT THIS TRIAL, JUST IN JULY.

>> HE'S NOT JUDGED PERSONALLY.

HE IS BEING JUDGED BY THE ACTS.

HE TRIED TO ORGANIZE A COUP D'ETAT.

HE PLANNED THE DEATH OF MYSELF AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE.

HE COULD BE ON TRIAL JUST FOR THAT.

AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DENOUNCED YESTERDAY, HE WILL BE CONVICTED, AND I BELIEVE IN THAT.

CHRISTIANE, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

IF TRUMP WAS BRAZILIAN AND IF HE DID WHAT WAS HAPPENED AT THE CAPITOL HILL, HE WOULD HAVE ALSO BE ON TRIAL IN BRAZIL.

AND POSSIBLY --AND HE WOULD HAVE VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION, ACCORDING TO THE JUSTICES, HE COULD ALSO BE ARRESTED IF HE HAD DONE THAT HERE IN BRAZIL.

>> PRESIDENT LULA, WE SHOULD KNOW, HAS FACED CHARGES OF HIS OWN IN THE PAST, BUT ARE WE SEEING HIS RATINGS AND APPROVAL ACTUALLY GO UP, GIVEN WHAT WE'VE SEEN TRANSPIRE HERE AND THE VOCAL SUPPORT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS HAD FOR BOLSONARO?

>> YES.

SINCE THIS TRUMP-IMPOSED TARIFFS ON BRAZIL, LULA'S RATINGS HAVE GONE UP QUITE A BIT.

SO, IT'S HAVING A GREAT, LIKE, RESPONSE ON HIS POPULARITY.

THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE BOLSONARO FAMILY INITIALLY INTENDED.

AND ALSO EDUARDO BOLSONARO, BOLSONARO'S SON WHO WAS A POSSIBLE SUCCESSOR, IS ALSO HAVING HIS POPULARITY MELT AS HE'S BEEN SEEN BY MANY AS A TRAITOR FOR THE NATION, TRAITOR FOR THE NATION'S INTERESTS.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE BOLSONARO STILL COMMANDS A LOYAL FOLLOWING.

AND OBVIOUSLY HIS FUTURE IN POLITICS HAS LIKELY --THE DOOR TO THAT HAS LIKELY BEEN CLOSED.

HE'S BANNED FROM RUNNING AGAIN UNTIL 2060, HE'D BE OVER 100 YEARS OLD AT THAT POINT.

NONETHELESS, IT IS A VERY DIVIDED COUNTRY, AND HE STILL HAS A LARGE GROUP OF SUPPORTERS, SO, WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM NOW?

>> WELL, THERE ARE MANY GOVERNORS AT THIS MOMENT WHO ARE COMPETING TO BECOME BOLSONARO'S SUCCESSORS.

BOLSONARO HAS, AT LEAST, 30% OF LOYAL SUPPORTERS IN THE COUNTRY.

AND --AND SO, ALL THESE GOVER NORS ARE COMPETING TO WHO DEFENDS MORE THE RADICAL FAR RIGHT SPEECH AT THIS MOMENT.

AND IT'S INTERESTING THAT BRAZIL HAS BEEN RESPONDING WITH FORCE TO THESE RADICAL FAR RIGHT SPEECH.

IN A MOMENT WHERE WE SEE SO MANY LIBERAL DEMOCRACIES UNDER THREAT BY THIS - -THESE VERY SPEECHES, SO, I HOPE BRAZIL CAN BECOME AN EXAMPLE IN THE FUTURE, AND IN THE PRESENT, FOR HOW TO --HOW CAN WE RESPOND TO THIS POPULOUS FEVER OF OUR TIMES?

>> WILL BOLSONARO PLAY A ROLE AS SORT OF A KING MAKER IN HAND-PICKING, PERHAPS, WHO THAT SUCCESSOR WOULD BE?

>> DEFINITELY.

ONE OF THEM IS -- >> SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> ONE OF --NO, ONE OF THEM IS HIS WIFE, AS WELL.

THAT IS --AND THE PASTOR WE PORTRAY IN THE FILM IS A POSSIBLE SUCCESSOR, AS WELL.

>> I KNOW RIGHT NOW, WE ARE SEEING A SHOW OF SUPPORT IN DEFIANCE FROM BRAZILIANS IN THE FACE OF THE AMERICAN RESPONSE HERE AND THIS CONVICTION, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS THREATENED ADDITIONAL RETALIATORY MEASURES, PERHAPS EVEN MORE ECONOMIC SANCTIONS AGAINST THE COUNTRY AND TARIFFS.

ARE THERE CONCERNS THAT THIS COULD REALLY HAVE AN EVEN LARGER ECONOMIC IMPACT FOR THE COUNTRY DOWN THE ROAD, PERHAPS COUNTRIES LIKE CHINA AND OTHER BRIC NATIONS MAY SAY THEY WILL COME TO THEIR AID AND BE A BETTER PARTNER, BUT PUTTING ACTIONS TO THOSE WORDS SEEMS TO BE A BIGGER HURDLE.

>> YES, I MEAN, WE'RE ALL APPREHENSIVE ABOUT HOW THE UNITED STATES WILL CONTINUE TO REACT TO OUR DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES.

NOT JUST IN THE PRESENT MOMENT, BUT IN OUR ELECTION NEXT YEAR.

AND SOME OF THESE INTERFERENCES ARE INVISIBLE.

THEY HAPPEN THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, THEY HAPPEN WITH PAYMENTS THAT ARE UNDER THE CARPET, SO I THINK AS CITIZENS, WE SHOULD ALL BE VERY VIGILANT FOR WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO BRAZILIAN DEMOCRACY, AND IF OUR NEXT ELECTIONS WILL BE FAIR AND --AND WILL NOT HAVE INTERNATIONAL INTERFERENCE.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE PASTOR WHO YOU CHRONICLE IN THE FILM, AS WELL, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE ROLE OF RELIGION AMONG BOLSONARO'S SUPPORTERS?

>> WELL, SIMILAR TO THE UNITED STATES, IN THE PAST 15 YEARS, EVANGELICAL LEADERS HAVE BECOME CRUCIAL TO THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE IN BRAZIL.

THEY HAVE IMITATING AND INSPIRED BY BILLY GRAHAM, BY JERRY FALL WELL.

THEY HAVE TRIED TO USE THESE CHURCHES, THE CHURCHES THAT THEY HAVE UNDER THEIR CONTROL, AS BASES FOR ELECTIONS.

AND VERY TIED TO WHAT IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE UNITED STATES AND BRAZIL THE FAR RIGHT.

BOLSONARO WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT ELECTED, THANKS TO THE EVANGELICAL VOTE, AND THE --AND IN HIS LAST ELECTION, WHERE HE LOST, 2022, AS WE SHOW IN OUR FILM, 70% OF EVANGELICALS VOTED FOR BOLSONARO.

THAT WAS A HIGHER PERCENTAGE THAN IN ANY OTHER SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION.

AND THEY CONTINUE, THESE LEADERS CONTINUE VERY ALIGNED WITH BOLSONARO AND WHOEVER WILL SUBSTITUTE BOLSONARO.

AND WHAT WORRIES ME IS THAT THIS IS VERY TIED TO A DOMINIONIST PLAN, THAT SAYS FUNDAMENTALIST EVANGELICAL SHOULD TAKE OVER ALL POWER.

THE EVANGELICAL POPULATION IS DIVERSE, AND MANY OF THEM ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THE EXCESSIVE USE AND POLITICIZATION OF THEIR FAITH.

>> IT'S ALL VERY FASCINATING, AND THIS COMING AT A TIME WHEN IT'S LIKELY NOT OVER.

I'M NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT THE LEGAL PROCESS AND THE APPEAL, I'M JUST TALKING ALSO ABOUT HOW THE U. S. IS THREATENING TO CONTINUE ITS RETALIATION IN RESPONSE TO THIS CONVICTION AND WHETHER THEY WILL ACTUALLY FOLLOW THROUGH ON THAT, WHAT THAT COULD LOOK LIKE FOR THE COUNTRY AND PERHAPS, AS YOU SAID, BACKFIRE AND INCREASE THE SUPPORT FOR PRESIDENT LULA.

PETRA COSTA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS DEEP DIVE WITH US, REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS RELEASED A PLAN TO IMPROVE CHILDREN'S HEALTH.

128 RECOMMENDATIONS ADDRESS EVERYTHING FROM VACCINES TO THE TYPE OF MILK SERVED IN SCHOOLS.

IT'S ALL PART OF HEALTH SECRETARY ROBERT F. KENNEDY'S PUSH TO MAKE AMERICA HEALTHY AGAIN.

ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, SOME PARTS OF THE REPORT ARE A CAUSE FOR CONCERN.

SUSAN MAYNE IS A PROFESSOR AT YALE AND THE FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR FOOD SAFETY AND APPLIED NUTRITION AT THE FDA.

SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS WHERE SHE BELIEVES THE STRATEGY SUCCEEDS AND WHERE IT FALLS SHORT.

>> BIANNA, THANK YOU.

DR.

MAYNE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

JUST LAST WEEK, ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

UNVEILED HIS MAKE AMERICA HEALTHY STRATEGY DOCUMENT, IT HAS 128 DIFFERENT RECOMMENDATIONS IN IT.

YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH HOW THE FDA WORKS AND YOU'RE NOW IN PUBLIC HEALTH.

WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST IMPRESSIONS?

>> MY INITIAL IMPRESSIONS ARE THEY'VE IDENTIFIED A REALLY IMPORTANT PUBLIC HEALTH PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH CHRONIC DISEASE.

IT'S NOT JUST A PROBLEM FOR CHILDREN, IT'S A PROBLEM FOR ADULTS, AS WELL.

CHRONIC DISEASES ARE THE LARGEST CAUSES OF DEATH IN THIS COUNTRY.

CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE AND CANCER BEING NUMBER ONE AND NUMBER TWO.

IN TERMS OF THE IMPORTANCE FOR ME IS THAT THIS REPORT HAS REALLY FOCUSED IN ON DIET AND NUTRITION, AS IMPORTANT MODIFIABLE RISK FACTORS FOR CHRONIC DISEASE, AND THAT'S AN AREA I'VE BEEN WORKING ON FOR THE LAST FOUR DECADES.

>> HE SAID HE HAD A CLAIM IN THERE THAT SAYS 76% OF AMERICANS ARE SUFFERING FROM A CHRONIC DISEASE, COMPARED WITH 11% WHEN MY UNCLE WAS PRESIDENT.

THAT STATISTIC ACCURATE?

>> I CAN'T QUOTE SPECIFIC STATISTICS, AND IT ALSO DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE INCLUDES IN TERMS OF CHRONIC DISEASE.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT CHRONIC DISEASE, MY WORK IS ON CANCER, HEART DISEASE, AND OBESITY, AND DIABETES, AND YES, THEY HAVE GONE UP IN THIS COUNTRY.

OBESITY HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY IN THIS COUNTRY, AND MANY OF THE CHRONIC DISEASES THAT I JUST SPOKE ABOUT ARE SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO OBESITY.

>> OKAY, SO, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES HAS BEEN THAT, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S AN ACUTE HEALTH ISSUE, WE CAN TRY TO TREAT IT WITH MEDICINE, WE CAN TRY TO HAVE INTERVENTIONS, BUT FOR CHRONIC DISEASES THAT TAKE SUCH A LONG-TERM IMPACT ON PEOPLE, HOW DO WE, YOU KNOW, RERIGHT THE SHIP, SO TO SPEAK, THE ENTIRE HEALTH INFRASTRUCTURE, TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING THAT IS KIND OF SO ENTRACTABLE FOR SO MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE?

>> I THINK THE IMPORTANCE OF THE REPORT IS THAT IT DOES FOCUS IN ON PREVENTION, AND PREVENTION HAS BEEN A HARD AREA TO REALLY FOCUS IN ON AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, BECAUSE THE DIVIDENDS TAKE AWHILE TO COME IN.

BUT WE KNOW, WE HAVE TO PREVENT THESE CHRONIC DISEASES, AND FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHRONIC DISEASES, FOOD AND NUTRITION ARE IMPORTANT THINGS TO HELP MANAGE THOSE CHRONIC DISEASES.

THERE'S REALLY EXCITING RESEARCH SHOWING THAT YOU CAN EVEN REVERSE DISEASES LIKE TYPE II DIABETES WITH FOOD, NUTRITION, LIFESTYLE INTERVENTIONS.

SO, IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PRIORITY, FOCUSING ON PREVENTION AND MANAGEMENT OF CHRONIC DISEASE, AND FOOD AND NUTRITION ARE REALLY IMPORTANT TOOLS TO DO JUST THAT.

>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT FOOD AND NUTRITION, ONE OF THE REPORT'S PROPOSALS IS TO DEFINE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS.

AND I GUESS WE KIND OF HAVE AN IDEA OF WHAT THAT IS, BUT WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO TRY TO GET A DEFINITION OUT?

>> IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO GET A DEFINITION OUT.

ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT TO AGREE ON WHAT THAT DEFINITION SHOULD BE.

THERE HAVE BEEN DEFINITIONS THAT HAVE BEEN USED FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES, SUCH AS THE NOVA CLASSIFICATION, BUT WE KNOW THEY'RE OVERLY BROAD.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT WE KNOW IS THAT IT TENDS TO INCLUDE FOODS AS BEING ULTRA PROCESSED THAT ARE ACTUALLY NOT HARMFUL FOR OUR HEALTH AND MAY BE BENEFICIAL, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY MAY INCLUDE AN ADDITIVE, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO, IF THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO TAKE A REGULATORY STEP ON ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS, THEY NEED TO DEFINE WHAT THAT MEANS.

STATES HAVE TRIED TO DO THAT, BY SAY, LET'S FIGURE OUT WHAT PARTICULARLY HARMFUL ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS ARE, THEY TEND TO BE THE ONES WE SAY ARE JUNK FOODS, PEOPLE WOULD AGREE THOSE ARE PROBLEMATIC.

BUT WHAT ABOUT WHOLE WHEAT BREADS AND SERIALS THAT ARE CAPTURED UNDER THE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS CATEGORIZATION, THAT ARE ASSOCIATE WITH REDUCTIONS IN THINGS LIKE COLON CANCER.

>> EACH OF THE FOODS THAT MIGHT BE IN THIS CATEGORY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE A VERY POWERFUL LOBBY TRYING TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT LEDGE SLATED OUT OR REGULATED INTO WHATEVER THE RULES ARE.

DECREASING ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS WAS KIND OF ONE OF THE CENTRAL IDEAS OF THE SECRETARY'S SUPPORTERS EARLY IN THIS ADMINISTRATION, AND I WONDER, I MEAN, AS I LOOK THROUGH THE STRATEGY, I DON'T SEE THAT MANY SPECIFICS ON EXACTLY HOW TO TACKLE IT, BESIDES TRYING TO DEFINE IT.

>> I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU.

AND THAT WAS EXACTLY MY REACTION, AS WELL.

CLEARLY, THERE IS A COMMITMENT TO TRY TO REDUCE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU SEE LANGUAGE ABOUT PROVIDING HEALTHY, WHOLE FOODS TO CONSUMERS ACROSS DIFFERENT SECTORS, FROM THE WOMEN, INFANT, AND CHILDREN PROGRAM, THROUGH THE SUPPLEMENTAL NUTRITION ASSISTANCE PROGRAM.

SO, THAT'S A LAUDABLE GOAL, TO REDUCE CON SEMISHUN OF FOODS, PROVIDE FRESH, WHOLESOME FOODS TO PEOPLE.

THE ROB IS, THERE AREN'T CLEAR POLICIES IN THE RECORD TO DO THAT.

MORE OVER, THERE ARE RESOURCE RAMIFICATIONS.

IT HAS COST IMPLICATIONS.

AND INSTEAD, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE THE BIGGEST CUTS EVER IN OUR FEDERAL NUTRITION ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS.

SO, THE GOALS AND THE COMMITMENTS REALLY STAND AT ODDS WITH THE RESOURCES, AND YOU MAY HAVE NOTED WHEN YOU READ THE STRATEGY, THERE AREN'T RESOURCE COMMITMENTS IN THE REPORT.

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SUPPLEMENTAL NUTRITION PROGRAM, THIS STRATEGY DOCUMENT SAYS IT WANTS TO GET WHOLE, HEALTHY FOOD TO SNAP PARTICIPANTS.

GIVEN THE CUTS TO SNAP, HOW LIKELY IS THAT?

>> AH, ZERO.

ZERO LIKELY.

IF YOU CUT THESE PROGRAMS, AND YOU CUT THE RESOURCES, YOUR ABILITY TO DELIVER WHOLE, HEALTHY FOODS IS SIMPLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN SOME OTHER CUTS, NOT JUST TO SNAP, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WERE PROGRAMS WHERE FARMERS COULD GET FRESH PRODUCE INTO THE SCHOOL SYSTEMS, GREAT PROGRAMS THAT SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE, SUPPORTED HEALTHY FOODS IN SCHOOLS, THOSE WERE ALSO DEFUNDED.

SO, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT RESOURCE COMMITMENTS THEY'LL BE MAKING GOING FORWARD, BUT BASED UPON WHAT'S HAPPENED SO FAR, THESE GOALS WILL NOT BE REEFED.

>> THE ORIGINAL MAHA REPORT FROM SOME MONTHS AGO IDENTIFIED FOUR POTENTIAL DRIVERS OF CHILDHOOD CHRONIC DISEASES, IT IDENTIFIED POOR DIET, AGGREGATION OF ENVIRONMENTAL CHEMICALS, LACK OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY, AND MEDICALIZATION.

IS THAT A FAIR ASSESSMENT, IS THAT A DECENT SORT OF STARTING POINT?

>> WELL, MY EXPERTISE IS ON THE FOOD AND NUTRITION SIDE, BUT WHAT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS IS THAT MANY OF THE LEADING CAUSES OF DEATH IN OUR YOUTH, SUCH AS FIREARM INJURIES, ARE NOT MENTIONED.

ALSO TOBACCO AND ALCOHOL ARE NOT ADDRESSED IN THE REPORT.

SPECIFICALLY, AND SO, THOSE ARE IMPORTANT CAUSES OF CHRONIC DISEASE IN OUR COUNTRY, AS WELL, SO -- THERE CERTAINLY ARE SOME THINGS THAT ARE NOT MENTIONED IN THE REPORT, THE PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS WOULD PRIORITIZE IN SUCH A REPORT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THIS STRATEGY TRIES TO LAY OUT, AND I THINK THAT YOU HAVE AN EXPERTISE ON IS SORT OF DIETARY GUIDELINES.

IS THE UNITED STATES GOING TO REVISIT, SO TO SPEAK, WHAT WE CONSIDER THE BARE MINIMUM OR THE OPTIMAL TYPE OF DIET THAT AMERICANS SHOULD BE HAVING?

>> I'M GLAD YOU ASKED ME ABOUT THE DIETARY GUIDELINES.

JUST A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND, THEY'RE ISSUED EVERY FIVE YEARS.

THAT'S REQUIRED BY CONGRESS, AND SO, THAT HAS TO HAPPEN EVERY FIVE YEARS.

THE PROCESS INVOLVES A VERY TRANSPARENT PUBLIC-FACING PROCESS, RESEARCH QUESTIONS ARE IDENTIFIED, NUTRITION EVIDENCE REVIEWS ARE PREPARED AND CONSOLIDATED.

PUBLIC MEETINGS ARE HELD.

THEN A DIETARY GUIDELINES ADVISELY COMMITTEE TAKES TWO YEARS TO REVIEW ALL THAT SCIENCE AND PRODUCE A SCIENTIFIC REPORT CALLED THE DIETARY GUIDELINES ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPORT.

AND THAT REPORT WAS RELEASED NEAR THE END OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

AND THAT -- THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS.

AND THEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TAKES THAT REPORT AND COMES UP WITH THE DIETARY GUIDELINES FOR AMERICANS.

AND SO, THIS ADMINISTRATION NEEDS TO DO THAT BEFORE THE END OF THIS YEAR.

WE HAVE HEARD SECRETARY KENNEDY SAY THAT THOSE SHOULD BE FORTHCOMING IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

WHAT I AM A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT, THOUGH, IS THAT SOME OF THE STATEMENTS IN THE ACTUAL STRATEGY ABOUT THE DIETARY GUIDELINES PROCESS ARE CONCERNING.

AND THEY TALK ABOUT REVISITING THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE, THEY TALK ABOUT REVISITING HOW THAT SCIENCE IS LOOKED AT AND HOW THE PROCESS UNFOLDS.

THAT PROCESS HAS BEEN LOOKED AT OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH A LOT OF INPUT FROM CONGRESS, AND I'M CONCERNED THAT WE MAY SEE SOME DISRUPTION TO A VERY SCIENCE-BASED TRANSPARENT PROCESS BY THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, WHICH WE HAVE SEEN WITH THE VACCINE ADVISORY COMMITTEE, SO, THAT CONCERNS ME.

THE OTHER POINT I'LL MAKE IS THAT I FULLY EXPECT THAT THE DIETARY GUIDELINES THAT WILL BE COMING MAY DEVIATE FROM SOME OF THAT SCIENCE THAT IS TICULATED IN THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE.

AND WE'VE SEEN THAT IN THE STRATEGY REPORT, FOR EXAMPLE, LANGUAGE ABOUT REMOVING RESTRICTIONS ON SATURATED FAT.

THAT WAS MENTIONED.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN HIGHER PROFILE TO MEAT IN THIS STRATEGY REPORT, IT'S MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN THE STRATEGY.

BUT THERE'S NO MENTION OF POULTRY OR FISH OR PLANT PROTEINS, SO, I THINK THAT FORESHADOWS SOME OF WHAT WE MAY BE SEEING COMING WITH THE DIETARY GUIDELINES.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER AREAS THAT I THINK YOU'D BE QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT IS MICROBIAL FOOD SAFETY.

WE DON'T NECESSARILY THINK ABOUT IT, UNFORTUNATELY, WE THINK ABOUT IT ONLY IN THE CONTEXT OF WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG AND WE HEAR ABOUT SOMETHING ON THE NEWS.

BUT WHAT THOSE KIND OF CHANGES TO THIS THAT YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT?

>> IT REALLY HAS NOT RECEIVED MUCH ATTENTION FROM THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IN TERMS OF PROMOTING THAT WE NEED TO DO MORE HERE.

INSTEAD, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN ARE STEPS BY THE ADMINISTRATION TO ACTUALLY UNDERMINE MICROBIAL FOOD SAFETY.

A FEW EXAMPLES INCLUDE DISMANTLING AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE THAT'S BEEN IN EXISTENCE CALLED THE NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE MORE MICROBIOLOGICAL CRITERIA IN FOOD.

THEY WERE WORKING ON A REQUEST THAT WE PUT FORWARD WHEN I WAS AT THE FDA ON HOW TO PREVENT BACTERIAL INFECTION OF INFANT FORMULA, BECAUSE THAT LED TO THE MASSIVE RECALL IN INFANT FORMULA SHORTAGES.

SO, WE HAD A COMMITTEE WORKING ON THAT.

THAT GROUP DISBANDED RIGHT BEFORE THE RELEASE OF THAT REPORT AND IT HAS NOT SEEN THE LIGHT OF DAY.

WE'VE SEEN CHANGES TO OUR FOOD BORNE ILLNESS SURVEILLANCE SYSTEMS, THAT WAS OUR NATIONAL SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM THAT USED TO CAPTURE DATA ON EIGHT DIFFERENT PATHOGENS, THEY HAVE NOW SAID THEY ARE REDUCING THAT TO JUST TWO, SALMONELLA AND E. COLI, BECAUSE OF LACK OF RESOURCES.

SO, THERE ARE OTHER CHANGES, AS WELL.

BUT I THINK THAT AN IMPORTANT POINT IS WHEN WE THINK ABOUT KNEW NUTRITION, WE REALLY HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO FOOD SAFETY AND MICROBIAL FOOD SAFETY, BECAUSE IF WE'RE PROMOTING THINGS LIKE FRUITS AND VEGETABLES AND LEAFY GREENS AND WHOLE, FRESH FOODS, THOSE ARE THE SAME TYPES OF FOODS THAT ARE HIGHER RISK FROM A FOOD SAFETY PERSPECTIVE.

AND I'VE HEARD PEOPLE SAY TO ME, WELL, I'D RATHER GO EAT A BAG OF DORITOS BECAUSE I'M NOT GOING TO HAVE FOOD BORNE ILLNESS.

WE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT.

WE NEED TO PREVENT ILLNESSES AND CONTAMINATION OF THESE PRODUCTS, AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO SUPPORT A NUTRITION STAT INDUSTRY.

I LED THE CENTER FOR FOOD SAFETY AND APPLIED NUTRITION, SO, I GOT TO LOOK AT THAT INTERSECTION OF FOOD SAFETY AND NUTRITION, AND THE TWO INTERSECT QUITE FREQUENTLY.

PAYING ATTENTION TO FOOD SAFETY IS IMPORTANT FOR NUTRITION, AS WELL.

>> DOCTOR, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT, YOU KNOW, BESIDES TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE FOOD THAT'S GOING INTO OUR BODIES IS SAFE IN THE FIRST PLACE, THERE'S ALSO SORT OF THE EXPOSURE FROM OUTSIDE, RIGHT?

I MEAN, HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT KIDS ARE NOT EXPOSED TO TOXIC CHEMICALS AND SO FORTH?

AND I SEE IN THE STRATEGY DOCUMENT, THERE'S A LOT OF KIND OF EMPHASIS AND THE EPA STUDYING LOTS OF THINGS INCLUDING AIR POLLUTION AND --BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE SEE, YOU KNOW, THE OFFICE FOR RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT AT THE EPA HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN, SO, IT'S --I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED AS TO HOW WE WOULD TRY TO GET TO THIS HEALTHIER, HAPPIER PLACE WHILE THE FUNDS FOR SOME OF THE RESEARCH THAT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO FIND THE INFORMATION DON'T EXIST ANYMORE.

>> AND YOU'VE IDENTIFIED SOME OF THE REALLY STARK CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION AND THE STATED GOALS IN THE STRATEGY REPORT.

AND I CAN GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING I WORKED ON AT FDA, AND THAT'S CONTAMINATION OF FOODS WITH PFAS.

AND SO, PFAS GET INTO THE ENVIRONMENT, THEY GET INTO THE WATER, THEY GET INTO THE SOIL, AND THEN FOOD CAN TAKE THAT UP, AND WE HAVE CONTAMINATED FOOD.

SO, THE ONLY WAY TO REALLY ADDRESS IT IS TO ADDRESS THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONTAMINATION, AND WE WORKED HARD WITH EPA TO SET STANDARDS FOR PFAS IN WATER, TO TRY TO REDUCE THAT ENVIRONMENTAL CON CONTAMINATION, AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION IS THOSE STANDARDS ARE BEING ROLLED BACK, SO, AGAIN, IT'S JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE, WHERE THE GOALS IN THE REPORT AND THE STRATEGY, THOSE GOALS ARE REALLY SPOT- ON, BUT THE ACTIONS THE ADMINISTRATION IS TAKING ARE THE OPPOSITE, AND ARE GOING TO REALLY IMPAIR THEIR ABILITY TO MEET ANY OF THOSE GOALS.

>> SO, HOW DO WE GET FROM KIND OF THIS IDEA OF A STRATEGY DOCUMENT TO ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTING IT?

LET'S TAKE FOR EXAMPLE, ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS, IF THE DEFINITION IS THE ONLY THING THAT THE STRATEGY IS CALLING FOR, WHAT DO WE DO BETWEEN NOW AND WHENEVER THAT TIME IS?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION, BECAUSE I REALLY THINK WE NEED AS URGENT ACTION RIGHT NOW ON ULTRA POSSESSED FOODS.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME TO COME UP WITH A DEFINITION THAT CAN BE USED FOR REGULATORY PURPOSES, AND WE NEED ACTION NOW.

SO, WHAT I WOULD RECOMMEND IS THAT THEY REALLY FOCUS IN ON THE COMPONENTS OF ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS THAT WE KNOW ARE DAMAGING TO HEALTH.

AND I'M TALKING ABOUT TOO MUCH SODIUM, TOO SUCH SUGAR, TOO MUCH SATURATED FAT.

THERE ARE STEPS THE ADMINISTRATION COULD TAKE RIGHT NOW, CONTINUE PROMOTING SODIUM REDUCTION IN OUR FOOD SUPPLY.

PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE THERE.

CONTINUE WORKING ON SUGAR REDUCTION.

SATURATED FAT REDUCTION.

FRONT OF PACK NUTRITION LABELING WAS PROPOSED, BUT NOT YET FINALIZED, SO GETTING THAT INFORMATION RIGHT ON THE FRONT OF PACKAGES.

AND I'VE MENTIONED SOME LABELING IDEAS, BECAUSE LABELING NOT ONLY INFORMS CONSUMERS, BUT IT ALSO DRIVES INDUSTRY TO REFORM LATE PRODUCTS TO BE HEALTHIER.

WHEN FDA MANDATED TRANSFAT LABELING ON THE NUTRITION FACTS LABEL SOME YEARS AGO, EXPOSURE DROPPED BY 80%, AND THAT'S BECAUSE CONSUMERS STARTED AVOIDING PRODUCTS WITH TRANSFAT AND INDUSTRY REFORMULATED.

SO, THERE'S MANY STEPS, THESE AND OTHERS, THAT THE GOVERNMENT COULD CERTAINLY TAKE RIGHT NOW TO START ADDRESSING ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS BY DEALING WITH THE ADVERSE NUTRITIONAL COMPOSITION OF THESE FOODS AND HELPING DRIVE TO A MORE HELPFUL FOOD SUPPLY.

>> HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT THIS IS NOT JUST AN ASPIRATIONAL STATEMENT?

I MEAN, ARE THERE KIND OF LOW-HANGING FRUIT WHERE WE COULD HAVE SOME SORT OF BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS OF PEOPLE SAYING, HEY, LET'S GO AHEAD AND GET BEHIND THIS?

WE SEE, WHEN IT COMES TO STANDING UP NEW AGENCIES, THAT'S GOING TO TAKE ACTIONS OF CONGRESS TO SORT OF FUND SOMETHING COMPLETELY NEW, AND SO, TO MY BRAIN, IT'S, WELL, THAT'S GOING TO TAKE FOREVER, OR, IF AT ALL, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, SO YOU'RE KIND OF GETTING AT, HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S GOALS AND METRICS AND ACCOUNTABILITY?

AND NONE OF THAT IS IN THE STRATEGY.

I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO SEE SOMETHING THAT SAYS, WITHIN TWO YEARS, WE'RE GOING TO DRIVE DOWN THE SODIUM CONTENT OF THESE FOODS, OR, WE'RE GOING TO REDUCE CONSUMPTION IN THIS COUNTRY BY ADDRESSING THINGS LIKE MARKETING OR ACCESS THROUGH THE SUPPLEMENTAL NUTRITION ASSISTANT PROGRAMS.

THERE ARE STEPS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN COMMUNICATED, AND METRICS THAT WE COULD HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR.

AND YOU MENTIONED BIPARTISAN SUPPORT --WE DO HAVE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT FROM CONGRESS TO ADDRESS THE FOOD SUPPLY IN WAYS THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE IN PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS.

AND I CAN SPEAK TO MY TIME IN THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, WHERE WE CERTAINLY DID NOT HAVE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

DESPITE THAT, WE WERE ABLE TO BAN PARTIALLY HIGH --TRANSFATS.

WE WERE ABLE TO GET THEM ON THE NUTRITION LABEL.

AND WE WERE ABLE TO TARGET TOO MUCH SODIUM IF FOODS, AND THAT WAS WITHOUT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

I WAS EXPECTING LOFTY GOALS AND STRATEGIES AND POLICIES COMING OUT OF THIS DOCUMENTS, POTENTIALLY METRICS AND IT JUST WASN'T THERE.

>> DR.

SUSAN MAYNE, FORMER FDA OFFICIAL AT FROM YALE UNIVERSITY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> AND FINALLY, IT'S TELEVISION'S BIGGEST NIGHT.

AND THIS YEAR'S EMMY AWARD HAD ALL THE STUNTS, SURPRISES, AND EMOTIONAL SPEECHES WE'VE COME TO LOVE AND EXPECT.

IT BROKE THE MOLD WITH SOME HISTORY-MAKING MOMENTS.

TRA MEL TILLMAN BECAME THE FIRST BLACK RECIPIENT FOR BEST BLACK SUPPORTING ACTOR.

WHILE "THE STUDIO" BECAME THE MOST AWARDED COMEDY EVER FOR A SINGLE SERIES.

BUT IT WAS THE SUCCESS OF A BRITISH MINI SERIES THAT STOLE THE SHOW.

>> WANT YOU TO LISTEN CAREFULLY.

>> WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> I'M GOING TO START OFF WITH ASKING YOU -- >> DO YOU KNOW A GIRL CALLED KATIE LEONARD?

>> YEAH.

>> DESCRIBE EACH OTHER AS FRIENDS THEN?

>> IS SHE DEAD THEN?

>> WHY WOULD YOU ASK THAT?

>> "ADOLESCENCE" PROVOKED WIDE- RANGING DEBATE OVER ITS TERRIFYING STORY OF ONLINE MISOGYNY AND REAL-LIME CONSEQUENCES.

IT TOOK HOME A TOTAL OF SIX AWARDS, INCLUDING THREE FOR ITS COCREATOR AND LEAD ACTOR STEPHEN GRAHAM.

AND ONE FOR ITS 15-YEAR-OLD STAR, OWEN COOPER, MAKING HIM THE YOUNGEST MALE EMMY WINNER OF ALL-TIME.

>> HONESTLY, WHEN I STARTED DRAMA CLASSES A COUPLE YEARS BACK, I DIDN'T EXPECT TO BE IN THE UNITED STATES, NEVER MIND HERE, BUT --I THINK TONIGHT PROVES THAT IF YOU LISTEN AND YOU FOCUS AND YOU STEP OUT YOUR COMFORT ZONE, YOU CAN ACHIEVE ANYTHING IN LIFE.

>> I'M JUST A MIXED RACE KID FROM A BLOCK OF FLATS IN A PLACE CALLED KIRBY.

FOR ME TO BE HERE TODAY IN FRONT OF MY PEERS AND TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED BY YOU IS THE MOST HUMBLING THING I COULD EVER IMAGINE IN MY LIFE AND IT SHOWS YOU THAT ANY DREAM IS POSSIBLE.

>> SOME OF THE BEST SPEECHES OF THE NIGHT.

> >> WELL, BACK IN MARCH, YOU MAY RECALL STEPHEN GRAHAM SPOKE TO CHRISTIANE ABOUT THE SHOW AND ITS IMPACT.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY YOU'RE TRYING TO EXPLORE IN THESE FOUR EPISODES?

>> BASICALLY, I READ AN ARTICLE IN THE PAPER A GOOD FEW YEARS AGO, AND THEN A COUPLE OF MONTHS LATER, THERE WAS A PIECE ON THE NEWS, ON THE TELLY, AND IT WAS ABOUT -- THERE WAS TWO YOUNG BOYS WHO STABBED THESE YOUNG GIRLS TO DEATH.

AND IT WAS OPPOSITE ENDS OF THE COUNTRY.

AND IT JUST MADE ME REALLY -- IF I'M LY HONEST, IT REALLY HURT MY HEART.

AND MADE HE WONDER WHY THEY WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS, AND WHAT'S KIND OF HAPPENED IN OUR SOCIETY.

WHERE THIS THING, IN BRITAIN, HAS BECOME KIND OF A REGULAR OCCURRENCE.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW THAT BEAUTIFUL SAYING, IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD?

>> YES.

>> WELL, WHAT I THOUGHT WE COULD LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, IS MAYBE WE'RE ALL SLIGHTLY ACCOUNTABLE IN SOME WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, WHEN WE LOOK AT IT AND ANALYZE IT FROM A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

MAYBE IT'S PARENTING, THE SCHOOL SYSTEM, THE GOVERNMENT, THE COMMUNITY, AND THE SOCIAL STRUCTURE IN WHICH THE CHILD IS RAISED, BUT WHEN ME AND YOU WERE KIDS, WE DIDN'T HAVE THE INTERNET.

BUT NOW THE INTERNET IS A HUGE INFLUENCE ON OUR CHILDREN.

AND IN MANY CASES, YOU KNOW, IT'S PARENTING OUR CHILDREN JUST AS MUCH AS WE ARE.

AND IT'S EDUCATING OUR CHILDREN JUST AS MUCH, IF NOT MORE THAN OUR SCHOOLS ARE.

>> SO, THE PRIME MINISTER OF THIS COUNTRY TALKED ABOUT THIS PROGRAM IN PARLIAMENT, SAID THAT HE'S WATCHING IT WITH HIS TEEN CHILDREN.

I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE CHILDREN.

WHAT DO YOU WANT THE IMPACT TO BE, LIKE, IN AUSTRALIA, THEY'VE JUST BANNED CHILDREN FROM SOCIAL MEDIA, 16 --UNTIL THEY'RE 16, I THINK.

>> I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD LOOK AT.

I THINK THERE'S A WAY OF LOOKING, AND, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL SAY, FREEDOM OF SPEECH, WHICH I UNDERSTAND, BUT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND POISON, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I THINK WE NEED TO BE VERY MINDFUL AND VERY, VERY CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT WE'RE INFLUENCING OUR YOUNG GENERATION AND WHAT WE'RE ALLOWING THEM TO SEE, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

AND IF ANYTHING, PERSONALLY, PERSONALLY, IF WE CAN STRIKE SOME KIND OF COMMUNICATION AND MAYBE, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE SAID THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE CAN GET FROM THIS IS WHAT THIS PROGRAM DID, AND MY WIFE SAID, WHAT SHE FEELS OUR PROGRAM HAS ACHIEVED IS FOR PARENTS TO BE ABLE TO OPEN THAT BEDROOM DOOR NOW AND TALK TO THEIR CHILDREN.

>> YEAH.

>> MALE OR FEMALE, AND ASK THEM, WHAT'S GOING ON?

LET'S JUST, YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW YOURSELF, WHEN YOU GO TO A RESTAURANT SOMETIMES, NO DISRESPECT, I UNDERSTAND IT, BUT KIDS ARE SAT THERE WITH -- >> YES.

>> TALK TO EACH OTHER, ASK EACH OTHER WHAT'S GOING ON.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING.

>> YEAH.

>> THIS IS SUCH A DIFFICULT AGE.

YOUR BRAIN'S FORMING, YOUR CHEMICALS ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE, YOU'RE LEARNING ABOUT YOURSELF, TRYING TO CONSTRUCT THIS CHARACTER THAT IS GOING TO TAKE YOU INTO THE FUTURE, SO, LET'S TALK, LET'S OPEN THE BRIDGES OF COMMUNICATION.

THAT'S ALL WE'RE TRYING TO DO.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" AND PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.