>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

ISRAEL INTENSIFIES ITS ATTACKS ON GAZA CITY AND ANNEXING THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

I SPEAK TO TWO NEGOTIATORS STILL FIGHTING FOR THAT DECADES OLD DREAM OF PEACE BUT IN A DIFFERENT AND NEW FORM.

>>> THEN, MUSEUMS, MYSTERY, CULTURE ALL UNDER ATTACK IN TODAY'S HAERK.

I ASK RENOWNED PROFESSOR IMANI PERRY ABOUT PROTECTING THE ARTS AND KNOWLEDGE.

>>> PLUS, THE BIG ONE.

PREPARING FOR THE NEXT PANDEMIC.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM AS RFK JR. UPENDS AMERICA'S VACCINE POLICY.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IN GAZA DOZENS MORE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED BY ISRAELI FORCES.

THE IDF IS PREPARING TO ENTER GAZA CITY, HOME TO HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DISPLACED PALESTINIAN FAMILIES WHO ARE NOW SUFFERING FROM FAMINECH THE U.N. SAYS THE HUMANITARIAN CONSEQUENCES ARE HORRIFIC.

THE HOSTAGES ARE STILL IN CAPTIVITY.

WITH CEASE-FIRE TALKS DEADLOCKED AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THREATENING TO ANNEX THE WEST BANK, THE FUTURE IS INCREASINGLY UNCERTAIN FOR PALESTINIANS ALREADY FACING A DIRE PRESENT.

AS PRESSURE MOUNTS ON INTERNATIONAL LEADERS TO STEP IN, FRANCE'S PRESIDENT MACRON AND SAUDI ARABIA'S CROWN PRINCE WILL HOLD A CONFERENCE ON THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION AT THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY LATER THIS MONTH.

JUST TODAY POPE LEO MET WITH ISRAEL'S PRESIDENT AND INSISTED TO HIM THAT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION IS THE ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS WAR.

AND EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS WAR THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER GIVEN UP ON THE POSSIBILITY OF TWO STATES.

TWO OF THEM ARE HERE WITH ME NOW.

YOSSI BELIN SERVE AS JUSTICE MINISTER IN ISRAEL AND A KEY POSE NEGOTIATOR WHILE HIB AH-HA SANY IS A LONG TIME PALESTINIAN PEACE NEGOTIATOR, AND THEY'VE BEEN WORKING TOGETHER TO CREATE A PLAN FOR TWO STATES WITH A TWIST.

SO WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

LET ME ASK YOU BOTH SINCE YOU'RE RIGHT IN MY LINE OF SIGHT.

HIBA HUSSEINI WHAT IS THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION WITH A TWIST?

WHAT IS THE PLAN FOR THE HOLYLAND, AS YOU HAVE BOTH OUTLINED?

>> INDEED, THANK YOU.

THE HOLY LAND WITH A TWIST IS A PROPOSAL, UMBRELLA, AN IDEA OUT OF THE BOX VERY INNOVATIVE TO ENABLE THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION THROUGH AN ARRANGEMENT WHEREBY TWO SOVEREIGN STATES ENTER INTO THE CONFEDERATION TOGETHER, STATE RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF PALESTINE AS A SOVEREIGN STATE.

ISRAEL AND PALESTINE THEN ENTER INTO THIS CONFEDERATION ARRANGEMENT BECAUSE THE CONFEDERATION PROVIDES THIS VEHICLE FOR THE TWO TO REALIZE THEIR STRATEGIC INTERESTS, MAINTAIN THEIR PRESENCE ON THE LAND AND SHARE THEIR FUTURE TOGETHER.

>> SO YOSSI BELIN, YOU'VE BEEN AROUND THE TABLE WHERE IT HAPPENS.

WHY IS THIS -- OR IS THIS MORE EASY TO GET PAST THE CONSENSUS AND PUBLIC OPINION THAN THE OFFICIAL TWO-STATE SOLUTION AS VIEWED BY OTHERS.

WHAT MAKES THIS IN YOUR MIND A GO THAN THE PREVIOUS ONES WHICH HAVE FAILED?

>> WELL, IT IS MUCH MORE FOR THE DECISION MAKERS, FOR THEM THE CURRENT SITUATION IN WHICH IF YOU MAKE PEACE YOU HAVE TO EVACUATE ABOUT HALF A MILLION ISRAELIS FROM THE WEST BANK IS POLITICALLY VERY, VERY DIFFICULT.

ALTHOUGH THEORETICALLY THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

>> YOU'RE STICKING BY THAT?

>> OF COURSE.

IT WAS A MISTAKE TO BUILD IN THE SETTLEMENTS FROM DAY ONE IN '67, '68, AND IT IS A MISTAKE TODAY.

BUT THIS IS A REALITY.

THE SETTLERS ARE SAYING FORGET ABOUT IT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION IT IS OVER BECAUSE WE ARE ALL OVER.

AND EVEN SUPPORTERS -- >> AND THAT'S TRUE.

>> NOT THAT WE HAVE TO FORGET IT, BUT THAT THEY'RE ALL OVER.

AND WE ARE SAYING EVEN IF YOU ARE ALL OVER, WE ARE SUGGESTING THAT UNDER THE CONFEDERATION THE ISRAELIS WHO WILL FIND THEMSELVES IN THE PALESTINIAN FUTURE STATE, AND IT IS ABOUT 200,000 ISRAELIS, WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE BETWEEN GOING BACK TO THE SOVEREIGN ISRAEL AND REMAINING WHEREVER THEY ARE.

NOBODY WILL TOUCH THEM.

IN A SITUATION IN WHICH THEY ARE PERMANENT RESIDENTS OF PALESTINE AND REMAIN ISRAELI CITIZENS, AND THE SAME NUMBER OF PALESTINIAN CITIZENS WHO WOULD LIKE TO LIVE IN ISRAEL WILL BE ALLOWED TO DO THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ARRANGEMENT OF THE -- OF THE ISRAELIS WHO WILL BE LEAVING THE -- >> SO YOU'RE SAYING POTENTIALLY A NUMBER -- LET'S SAY 200,000, WHICH IS A NUMBER YOU FLOATED OF ISRAELIS STAY IN THE SETTLEMENTS BUT THEY ABIDE BY PALESTINIAN RULES ALTHOUGH THEY ARE ISRAELI CITIZENS.

STICK WITH ME.

BUT THE PALESTINIANS EITHER FROM THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK OR GAZA, A SIMILAR NUMBER COULD COME TO ISRAEL.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHO'S GOING TO ACCEPT THAT?

>> WELL, I BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE MAIN OBSTACLE TO PEACE NOT FOR NETANYAHU AND THE -- THE EXTREMISTS IN HIS GOVERNMENT AND THE OTHERS, BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HAVE PEACE.

THEY WOULD LIKE TO MAKE PEACE AND THEY UNDERSTAND THE DIVISION OF THE LAND IS THE ONLY SOLUTION.

BUT THE ISSUE OF EVACUATION IS THE BIGGEST, BIGGEST OBSTACLE IN ORDER TO MAKE PEACE.

SO WHEN PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING NOW LEADERS -- AND I'M VERY GLAD TO SEE THAT, AGAIN, THAT THE ONLY SOLUTION IS THE TWO-STATE AND GIVEN SOME OF THEM ARE RECOGNIZING THE PALESTINIAN STATE, THEY DON'T TELL US HOW THEY ARE GOING TO DO THAT.

AND WE ARE SUGGESTING SOMETHING, AND THIS IS NOT THE ONLY TWIST IN OUR STORY.

>> I'LL GET BACK TO THE NEXT TWIST, BUT FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU, HIBA HUSSEINI, BECAUSE I THINK THERE'S NOT AN ISRAELI CONSENSUS MUCH LESS A PALESTINIAN CONSENSUS.

THE IDEA OF A PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE SEEMS TO BE FAR AWAY ON THE HORIZON.

DO YOU THINK THAT A PALESTINIAN STATE OR THE PRECURSOR WOULD ACCEPT ALL THE SETTLERS TO STAY?

DO YOU THINK THEY CAN BE TRUSTED TO ABIDE BY PALESTINIAN LAWS?

>> WELL, I MEAN, THIS IS VERY CHALLENGING, INDEED.

I MEAN, I THINK THE CRUX HERE IS THAT FOR THIS -- THIS OCCUPATION TO END, FOR US TO REALIZE OUR INDEPENDENCE AND STATEHOOD AND RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION.

IF IT MEANS WE HAVE TO ACCEPT A CERTAIN NUMBER OF PERMANENT RESIDENTS, THEY WILL NO LONGER BE SETTLERS.

THEY WILL BECOME PERMANENT RESIDENTS, LAW-ABIDING PERMANENT RESIDENTS.

AND THIS IS VERY CHALLENGING INDEED.

IF THEY DON'T ACCEPT, THEY HAVE THE OPTION TO STAY IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL THROUGH THE SWAP ARRANGEMENT.

>> SWAPS OF LAND OR SWAPS OF PEOPLE?

>> OF LAND.

OF LAND.

NO, WE DON'T PROPOSE TO SWAP PEOPLE.

>> YEAH.

SO, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW YOUR PRIME MINISTER AND YOUR PRIME MINISTER AND THE EXTREMISTS IN HIS GOVERNMENT ARE BASICALLY FLOATING PLANS TO ANNEX THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW.

ALMOST AS AN ANSWER AS A RESPONSE TO THE VARIOUS WESTERN AND ARAB NATIONS WHICH IS SAYING LATER THIS MONTH THEY'RE GOING TO RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN STATE.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY'RE SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO ANNEX GRADUALLY -- THIS IS WHAT'S BEING REPORTED -- GRADUALLY IN ORDER TO PULL BACK AND RETURN -- IT'S THIS ENDLESS GAME OF SORT OF GIVE-AND-TAKE SO TO SPEAK.

>> IT IS NOT NEW.

THE ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK IN GAZA IS A DIRECT PUNISHMENT TO ISRAEL.

I MEAN, THIS IS WHAT WE NEED NOW TO HELP MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS UNDER OUR OCCUPATION, THAT WE WILL BE IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING?

I MEAN WHAT HAPPENED IN OSLO IS AT LEAST FOR FIVE YEARS WHICH BECAME MORE THAN 30, IT WAS THE PALESTINIANS WITH THE HELP OF THE WORLD TOOK FOR THEMSELVES.

THE SUCCESS IS PARTIAL, BUT ISRAEL WAS OUT.

NOW TO GET BACK, IT IS REALLY CRAZY, AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT IT WILL HAPPEN BECAUSE OF THAT.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT COULD HAPPEN?

I MEAN, DO YOU BELIEVE THESE THREATS ARE REAL?

BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN SEEING EVER SINCE OCTOBER 7th AN INCREASE IN SETTLER VIOLENCE AIDED AND ABETTED IN MANY INSTANCES BY THE ISRAELI POLICE, THE IDF UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE EXTREME MINISTERS, BENGAV IGR ANYWAY.

IT'S HAPPENING, I MEAN THIS GRADUAL DESTRUCTION AND INCREASING INCURSION INTO THE WEST BANK, THE INCREASING EXPELLING OR FLEEING OF PALESTINIANS FROM THE WEST BANK.

IT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU SEE IT AS A CRITICAL MOMENT THAT -- BECAUSE NETANYAHU SAID WE'RE GOING TO BURY ANY IDEA OF A PALESTINIAN STATE.

>> INDEED.

I MEAN, THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL'S POSITION.

OF COURSE THAT IS VERY EXTREME.

REMEMBER WE HAVE 3 MILLION PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK, SO, INDEED, WE HAVE AROUND 50,000 PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN EXCELLED FROM THE REFUGEE CAMPS, AND THEY HAVE BEEN MOVED TO THE HEART OF THE WEST BANK.

>> AND THAT'S JUST IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS.

>> THE LAST FEW MONTHS, OF COURSE.

AND NOT TO MENTION WHAT IS HAPPENING THE GEORGIAN VALLEY AND THE COMMUNITY AND THE ATTACK -- ONSLAUGHT ON THE NATURAL RESOURCES, YOU KNOW, AND SO FORTH AND THE SHEPHERDS AND THE OLIVE TREES AND ALL OF THAT.

BUT I THINK ANNEXATION FOR ISRAEL IS -- MEANS ANNEXATION WITHOUT PEOPLE.

AND FOR -- >> WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

>> I MEAN THAT IF THEY WANT TO ANNEX THE WEST BANK, THEY WOULD LIKE TO EXCEL THE PALESTINIANS.

THAT IS VERY FAR-FETCHED.

THAT IS VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN.

AGAIN, THESE ARE BARGAINING CHIPS, BARGAINING POSITIONS.

LAND MAY BE SWAPPED HERE AND THERE, SO THE FUTURE WILL NOT STAND TO SEE THAT THERE WILL BE FULL, TOTAL ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK.

>> YOU SAY BARGAINING CHIPS AND ALL THE REST OF IT, AND THESE ARE -- YOU KNOW, THE CURRENT SORT OF EVERYBODY'S TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING AND NEVER QUITE SURE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI JOURNALIST OF AXIOS, A SENIOR EMERATI OFFICIAL AS TOLD HIM IT'S ANNEXATION OR INTEGRATION.

YOU SAW LAST NIGHT IN A RARE PUBLIC STATEMENT THE UAE BASICALLY WARNED ISRAEL OF CROSSING A RED LINE, THAT THERE'D BE NO -- IT WOULD RISK THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS IF IT WAS ACTUALLY TO ANNEX.

>> THE WHOLE DEAL WAS THAT ISRAEL WOULD GIVE UP ON ANNEXATION AND THAT THERE WOULD BE GOOD RELATIONS, NORMAL RELATIONS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SOME NORMAL STATES.

IF ISRAEL NOW SAYS FORGET ABOUT THE ISSUE OF -- OF ANNEXATION, MEANING WE WILL ANNEX NOW, IT MEANS THAT THEY WILL BE FREE TO FORGOT ABOUT NORMALIZATION.

>> THE ARAB COUNTRIES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, ESPECIALLY SAUDI ARABIA?

>> THIS WOULD BE MORE THAN CRAZY IF -- >> YOU HAVE SOME WHAT?

>> SOME LUNATICS IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

THEY'RE A MINORITY.

>> BUT THEY'RE POWERFUL.

THE SETTLERS ARE RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT.

>> THEY'RE NOT RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT.

BUT OF COURSE THEY'RE HAVING POWER MUCH MORE THAN THEIR FORMER POWER.

AND SINCE NETANYAHU DID A HUGE MISTAKE, IF I CAN CALL IT A MISTAKE, TO INVITE THEM TO HIS CABINET AFTER PROMISING ON TV THAT HE WILL NEVER PUT PEOPLE LIKE BENGAVIR IN -- >> I KNOW, IT'S DONE.

AND LOOK AT WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

>> YEAH, BUT IT WILL NOT GET TO THE CRAZY SITUATION IN WHICH WE ARE GOING TO ANNEX THE WEST BANK.

GIVE UP ON ANY NORMALIZATION -- >> BUT COULD IT BURY A TWO-STATE SOLUTION?

>> THIS CANNOT PREVENT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION EVENTUALLY WILL BE A REALITY BECAUSE IF WE DON'T HAVE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION WE WILL NOT HAVE ISRAELI AND JEWISH DEMOCRATIC STATE AND THE PALESTINIANS WILL NOT HAVE THE RIGHT -- THE WAY TO FULFILL THE RIGHTFUL DETERMINATION.

BOTH OF US CANNOT GIVE UP ON A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

>> YOSSI BELLIN, YOUR PARTNER IN THIS, CALLS THE GOVERNMENT LUNATICS, AND THEY'VE BEEN DESCRIBED AS SUCH BY OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL.

DO YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE YOUR OWN LUNATICS IN THE PALESTINIAN POLITICAL CONSENSUS MOST CERTAINLY IN HAMAS, IN GAZA, AND THOSE WHO APPARENTLY CAN'T SEEM TO PUSH THE POLITICAL BALL ALONG IN THE RECOGNIZED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

>> WELL, LUNACY IS ONE TOUGH WORD.

>> RIGHT.

OBSTRUCTIONIST.

>> OBSTRUCTIONIST IS PROBABLY THE MORE ACCURATE TERM IN THIS RESPECT.

I MEAN, HAMAS COMES AT IT FROM A WHOLE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN, DISAGREEING WITH THE PLO ON THE ENTIRE OSLO PROCESS WAY BACK IN '93.

SO FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION UNDERMINES THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INTEREST, THE WHOLE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION.

SO, I MEAN, YES, WE DO HAVE INTERNAL DIVISIONS IN PALESTINE, AND WE HAVE OBSTRUCTIONISTS, AND WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO GET IN THE WAY OF FULFILLING PEACE.

BUT I THINK THE DYNAMICS ARE CHANGING NOW.

THINGS ARE CHANGING.

THE GUZZA AZA WAR IS SO HORRIFID THE POWERS OF ARMS STRUGGLE ARE SHIFTING AND CHANGING.

>> LOOK, NETANYAHU KEEPS SAYING THAT THE IDEA IS TO DESTROY HAMAS.

THE ARAB STATES IN A VERY UNPRECEDENTED JOINT STATEMENT CALLED FOR HAMAS TO DISARM AND GIVE UP ANY NOTION OF POWER.

THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED PUBLICLY BEFORE IN THAT REGARD.

IT WAS JUST A FEW -- A MONTH OR SO AGO.

DO YOU THINK THAT IT WILL DISARM AND GIVE UP ITS ASPIRATIONS TO ANY KIND OF POLITICAL OR EVEN MILITARY PRESENCE?

AND DO YOU THINK THAT -- THAT ISRAEL CAN DESTROY HAMAS IN THE WAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT SAYS?

>> NOT IN THIS WAY.

NOT IN THIS WAY.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD SIT AND WATCH WHAT IS HAPPENING AND SAY, OKAY, UNTIL HAMAS IS GONE, THE SAME SITUATION WILL CONTINUE AND WE WILL HAVE A WAR FOREVER IN GAZA.

NO, IT IS NONSENSE.

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN IS THAT WE SHOULD DEMAND THAT HAMAS WILL NEVER BE PART OF THE GOVERNMENT IN GAZA.

THIS IS, I THINK, MORE THAN REASONABLE TO -- TO DEMAND.

IF THEY DON'T MOVE, THEN WE WILL HAVE TO TAKE -- TO DO OUR BEST IN ORDER TO TRY AND RELEASE THE HOSTAGES AND LEAVE THE PLACE, NOT TO REMAIN THERE ON A SQUARE KILOMETER IN ORDER FOR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TO ENTER GAZA.

THIS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION WHICH IS REASONABLE, WHICH IS POSSIBLE.

I TALKED ABOUT IT WITH PEOPLE IN THE REGION.

I TALKED ABOUT IT WITH -- WHO IN THE PAST REJECTED SUCH A -- A RETURN TO THE GAZA STRIP ON OUR -- SO-CALLED TODAY HE IS READY.

I THINK THAT WE SHOULD GO FOR THIS RATHER THAN TO SAY, OKAY, UNTIL THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH HAMAS, WE ARE WAITING AND WATCHING.

>> AND YOU, HIBA, THE U.S. IS ALSO UNCLEAR ABOUT WHAT IT WANTS.

I MEAN, EVERY DAY WE READ NEW THINGS THAT COME OUT OF ALLEGEDLY THE WHITE HOUSE, THE TRUMP RIVERIA PLAN FOR GAZA.

MARCO RUBIO IS AGAIN BEING REPORTED BY THE PRESS HAS TOLD THAT THE U.S. WON'T STAND IN THE WAY OF THE ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK.

CAN ANYTHING HAPPEN WITHOUT U.S. SUPPORT FOR WHAT YOU GUYS ARE SAYING AND THE GENERAL PUBLIC CONSENSUS AROUND -- OR THE GLOBAL CONSENSUS AROUND A TWO-STATE SOLUTION?

>> WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF THE U.S., THE SUPPORT OF EUROPE, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

THIS CONFLICT CANNOT BE RESOLVED BY ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS ALONE BECAUSE IT HAS NOT BECOME ONLY A REGION BUT A GLOBAL CONFLICT IN A SENSE.

YES, I THINK THE POSITION OF THE U.S. HAS TO BE MORE EVEN KEEL, AND IT HAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT PALESTINIAN INTERESTS AND ISRAELI INTERESTS HAVE TO BE TREATED EQUALLY AND HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED IN A MEANINGFUL WAY TO REALIZE PEACE AND SECURITY.

AND FOR ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS FOR THE REGION, FOR THE INTERNATIONAL -- FOR THE GLOBE IN THIS RESPECT.

SO I THINK SHIFTING OPINION FROM NIGHT AND DAY, IT DOES NOT HELP ANYBODY.

STATEMENTS ON A RIVERIA DO NOT HELP ANYBODY.

STATEMENTS ON DISPLACING AND REMOVING GAZANS INTO THE SINIH AND CONTINUING THIS FAMINE AND STARVATION AND REALLY ATROCITIES IN GAZA DO NOT HELP ANYBODY AND DON'T SERVE THE INTERESTS OF ANYONE.

I THINK IT'S HELPFUL FOR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TO RETURN TO GAZA, TO BE EMPOWERED, FOR HAMAS TO WORK WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND FOR US TO ALLEVIATE WHAT IS GOING ON IN GAZA FIRST.

OUR PLAN IS TO PROVIDE, AGAIN, A VOIGZ FOR VISION FOR THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION POST THIS HORRIBLE PERIOD OF TIME.

>> YOSSI, TO YOU IT SOUNDS PERFECTLY REASONABLE, BUT THE U.S. HAS EVEN DENIED PALESTINIAN OFFICIALS VISAS TO GO TO THE U.N., IN FACT.

THE U.S. HAS DENIED IT.

>> IT'S A HUGE MISTAKE.

HUGE MISTAKE.

>> IT'S UNPRECEDENTED I THINK.

ANYBODY, EVEN ADVERSARIES OF THE U.S. CAN GO TO THE U.N. AS HIBA SAYS, ALL OF THIS IS NOT IN THE INTEREST OF THE PALESTINIANS.

IS WHAT THE U.S.

DOING IN THE INTEREST OF AMERICA -- OF ISRAEL AS WELL BECAUSE IT'S BECOMING A PARIAH, AND IT'S NOT BEING, YOU KNOW, STOPPED OR MANAGED BY THE U.S. >> YOU HAVE TO BE A GENIUS IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS, AND I'M NOT A GENIUS.

BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT ALTHOUGH WE -- IN MANY AREAS WE ARE DEPENDENT, BUT NOT 100%.

AND I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND YOU, AND YOU REMEMBER IT.

WE DID NOT ASK THE AMERICANS A PERMIT IN ORDER TO GO TO OSLO.

>> THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT IT.

>> THEY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT, BUT WHEN I SPOKE TO THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE MIDDLE EASTERN REGION AND I SAID I HAVE SUCH AN IDEA TO BEGIN TO TALK WITH THE PLO, WOULD IT BE POSSIBLE TO DO IT IN THE UNITED STATES?

AND HE SAID I BLESS YOU FOR THE IDEA, BUT YOU CAN'T DO IT HERE BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE RESOLUTIONS OF THE CONGRESS.

>> THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT YOU POINT OUT RIGHT NOW.

THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE.

WELL, IT'S GREAT TO KNOW THAT TWO PEOPLE WORKING TOGETHER FROM DIFFERENT SIDES OF THIS CONFLICT ARE STILL AS COMMITTED AS YOU ARE AND WORKING SO HARD.

IT SHOULD GIVE PEOPLE A LOT OF -- OF, YOU KNOW, OF ENERGY TO TRY TO WORK THIS OUT.

SO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US, YOSSI BELIN AND HIBA HUSSEINI.

AND GOOD LUCK ON BEHALF OF PEACE, REALLY.

>>> IN THE UNITED STATES MANY SECTORS IN THE ARTS, MEDIA, CULTURE, EDUCATION, HEALTH, SCIENCE, YOU NAME IT ARE COMING UNDER PRESSURE AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION INCREASINGLY SEEKS TO CONTROL SO MUCH OF CIVIL SOCIETY INCLUDING A WORLD FAMOUS HISTORICAL INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE SMITHSONIAN.

ON WEDNESDAY IT RESPONDED TO AN ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION THAT THEY'D BE REVIEWING EXHIBITIONS AND PROGRAMMING SAYING OUR INDEPENDENCE IS PARAMOUNT.

PRESSURE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE HAS FORCED THE RESIGNATION OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY.

THERE'S TRUMP'S TAKEOVER OF THE KENNEDY CENTER AND THE CANCELLATION OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN GRANT FUNDING, AND THE LIST GOES ON.

TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS I'M JOINED BY IMANI PERRY, A PROFESSOR OF WOMEN, GENDER AND SEX WALLTY AND OF AFRICAN AND AMERICAN STUDIES AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY.

AND WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO CAN I FIRST ASK YOU THE CRITICAL -- TO COMMENT ON THE RESPONSE FROM THE SMITHSONIAN IN THAT THEY WILL BE -- YOU KNOW, THEY WILL BE LOOKING INTO WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS DEMANDED, REQUESTED.

AND YET THEY WILL ALSO MAINTAIN THEIR INDEPENDENCE.

HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO SHAKEDOWN?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M NOT ENTIRELY SURE.

I HAVE THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR DR. LANI BUNCH, SHE WAS THE DIRECTOR OF THE SMITHSONIAN WHO HAS EXHIBITED EXTRAORDINARY LEADERSHIP IN THIS MOMENT.

I MEAN, THIS IS AN INSTITUTION THAT HAS A LOT OF DELIBERATION, A LOT OF EXPERTS, A GREAT DEAL OF KNOWLEDGE, A GREAT DEAL OF SCHOLARSHIP THAT GOES INTO EVERY EXPERMISSION, EVERY INSTITUTION.

IT'S A LARGE SET OF INSTITUTIONS, AND SO I THINK THAT IF THEY ARE PUSHED TO SIMPLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, THESE SORT OF KNEE JERK IDEOLOGICAL, MYTH LOGICAL EXHIBITIONS, IT WILL LIE DIRECTLY CONTRARY TO WHAT THE MISSION OF THE INSTITUTION IS.

WHILE, YOU KNOW, IT'S APPROPRIATE TO RESPOND TO QUESTIONS, I DO THINK THAT -- THAT IT'S GOING TO BE -- WOULD CERTAINLY BE A DRAMATIC STANDOFF IF THEY'RE -- IF THEY'RE FORCED TO SHUTDOWN THIS EXTRAORDINARY INSTITUTION THAT WAS FOUNDED WITH A COMMITMENT TO KNOWLEDGE AND INFORMATION.

>> SO YOU'VE USED A LOT OF WORDS THAT I WANT TO DRILL DOWN ON.

I JUST WANT TO ASK WHAT YOU THINK WILL BE THE ALTERNATIVE EXHIBITIONS OR WHATEVER.

TRUMP AND LET ME QUOTE HIM HAS SAID THE SMITHSONIAN WAS, QUOTE, OUT OF CONTROL.

IT'S THE -- YOU KNOW, IT'S THE CENTER OF WOKENESS.

HE SAYS EVERYTHING DISCUSSED IS HOW HORRIBLE OUR COUNTRY IS, HOW BAD SLAVERY WAS AND NOW UNACCOMPLISHED THE DOWNTRODDEN HAVE BEEN.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WANT TO SEE AT THE SMITHSONIAN OR ANY OTHER INSTITUTES LIKE THE NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY, THE KENNEDY CENTER, THAT SO MUCH CONTROL HAS NOW BEEN TAKEN BY THE ADMINISTRATION?

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, I DO THINK IT IS ON THE ONE HAND KIND OF EFFORT TO DISPLACE KNOWLEDGE AND STUDY WITH MYTHOLOGY.

YOU CANNOT -- SIMPLY CANNOT TELL THE STORY OF THE UNITED STATES WITHOUT THE STORY OF AMERICAN SLAVERY.

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN'T TELL THESTERRY HOW THE NATION BECAME A GLOBAL POWER WITHOUT IT.

BUT THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH THERE'S A COMMITMENT ON THE PART OF THIS ADMINISTRATION TO TELL A KIND OF STORY THAT ON THE ONE HAND SUPPORTS A VISION OF THE NATION AS FUNDAMENTALLY WHITE, AS SORT OF THIS -- THIS ROMANTICIZED STORY THAT IS ONE THAT EXCLUDES, THAT LIMITS -- THAT EXCLUDES PEOPLE OF CULL, THAT EXCLUDES LGBTQIA COMMUNITY, THAT EXCLUDES THE IDEA WOMEN OUGHT NOT TO BE SELF-ACTUALIZING AND MAKING DECISIONS.

SO IT'S ON ONE HAND POTENTIALLY DISASTROUS AND IN ANOTHER POTENTIAL MANIPULATION, VERY OLD CULTURE WARS TO DISTRACT AMERICANS FROM THE OTHER KINDS OF THREATS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS POSING.

SO TO SAY, LOOK, IT'S ALL THOSE OTHER -- THOSE TROUBLING OTHERS THAT ARE CAUSING YOUR PROBLEMS AS OPPOSED TO ALL OF THE VERY REAL DANGERS NOW TO OUR HEALTH, TO OUR WELL-BEING, TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY AND OUR FOREIGN POLICY, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

>> SO LET'S JUST PLAY THIS -- THIS INTELLECTUAL, YOU KNOW, GAME OUT, WHICH IS NOT A GAME.

I MEAN, IT IS A REALITY.

WHAT IS THE CHILLING EFFECT?

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A GOVERNMENT SYSTEMATICALLY TRIES TO -- TO, YOU KNOW, DISTANCE ITSELF FROM KNOWLEDGE, FROM, YOU KNOW, ACTUAL HISTORY, FROM WHAT'S GOING ON?

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO A NATION IF THAT IS ALLOWED TO PROCEED?

>> I MEAN, WE'VE SEEN THE EXAMPLES HISTORICALLY.

THIS IS THE ATTACK ON THE INSTITUTIONS OF KNOWLEDGE IS ONE OF THE SORT OF CONSISTENT PRE-COURT CURSORS TO FASCISM AND AUTHORITARIANISM.

IT CERTAINLY IS A DEEP THREAT TO DEMOCRACY, IF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO TELL THEIR STORIES, TO PARTICIPATE FULLY IN THE NATION.

I WILL SAY, THOUGH, NOT WITHSTANDING ALL OF THAT, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE CONTINUING TO RESIST THIS TURN.

I THINK MY COLLEAGUE SARAH LEWIS' ENVISION JUSTICE INITIATIVE, WHICH IS TRYING TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY SEE THE FULLEST REPRESENTATION OF HUMAN BEINGS IN ORDER TO GET TO JUSTICE THROUGH THE WORK OF ARTISTS AND SCHOLARS.

AND SO THERE IS AN IMMINENT DANGER, AND AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, NOT EVERYONE IS WILLING TO LIE DOWN AND TAKE IT.

>> AND YET, I MEAN, YOU WERE A HARVARD PROFESSOR AND HARVARD IS JUSTIFIABLY FROM A CERTAIN SECTOR RECEIVED A HIGH AMOUNT OF KUDOS FROM STANDING UP TO PRESSURE FROM THE ADMINISTRATION.

AND YET YOU CAN READ IN THE NEWSPAPER WHILE IT'S NOT ACTIVELY CAPITULATING IT'S SEEKING TO SOMEHOW THIS PHRASE THREAD THE NEEDLE AND ADDRESS WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DEMANDING OF THEM IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

HOW DO YOU PERCEIVE WHAT HARVARD IS DOING RIGHT NOW?

BECAUSE EDUCATION IS CRITICAL TO ALL OF THIS.

>> IT IS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S A COMPLEX QUESTION TO ANSWER THERE.

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT PRIVY TO WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE UPPER LEVELS AT THE ADMINISTRATION.

THERE'S A WIDE ARRAY OF POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE AMONGST THE THOUSANDS OF FACULTY AND STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY.

SO I WILL SAY IS THAT THERE ARE MANY OF US WITHIN HARVARD UNIVERSITY WHO ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WAYS TO PURSUE KNOWLEDGE, TO CONTINUE TO TEACH NOT WITHSTANDING THE VERY DIRECT THREATS ON THE UNIVERSITY AND THE RESOURCES THAT ARE COMING FROM THE ADMINISTRATION.

AND WE OPERATE WITH A VISION OF LIBERAL EDUCATION NOT POLITICALLY BUT CONCEPTUALLY THAT PEOPLE OUGHT -- YOUNG PEOPLE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO ENGAGE IN DEBATE AND DELIBERATION AND CONFRONT IDEAS THAT THEY MIND TROUBLING AND STUDY AS PART OF THE EFFORT TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE THEY'RE GOING TO BE IN THE WORLD.

AND SO THAT CONTINUES TO HAPPEN AT THE UNIVERSITY NOT WITHSTANDING THE FACT THERE IS A CHILLING EFFECT PARTICULARLY ON STUDENTS, SOME OF WHOM ARE TERRIFIED, CERTAINLY FOR INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CRITICAL MASS OF PEOPLE ON THE SIDE OF THE INSTITUTION WHO ARE COMMITTED TO THE VALUES OF KNOWLEDGE AND DEMOCRACY.

>> SO WHAT DO YOUR STUDENTS SAY TO YOU?

DO THEY QUESTION YOU?

DO THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, WHERE'S THE RESISTANCE OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE?

BECAUSE YOU'VE JUST DESCRIBED STUDENTS ARE ALWAYS AT THE FOREFRONT OF ANY RESISTANCE, AREN'T THEY, RIGHT?

THE CULTURE, THE COUNTER CULTURE AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

WHAT DO THEY EXPECT AND WHAT ARE THEY SAYING TO YOU, IF ANYTHING, ABOUT -- ABOUT HOW THEY'RE GOING TO BE PROTECTED?

>> YEAH, I MEAN WE GET THE FULL RANGE FROM ABSOLUTE BEWILDERMENT TO TERROR.

THE ONE THING I WILL SAY IS THAT OUR STUDENTS, AT LEAST THE ONES THAT I TEACH, ARE PRETTY COMMITTED TO INTERROGATING AND CHALLENGING PERHAPS MORE DEEPLY EVEN THAN THOSE OF US WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE EDUCATING THEM.

AND SO THEY -- EVEN WHEN IT HAS -- ONLY WHEN THIS MOMENT HAS HAD A CHILLING EFFECT CERTAINLY ON CERTAIN FORMS OF STUDENT ACTIVISM, BUT IT HASN'T HAD A CHILLING EFFECT ON THEIR INTELLECTUAL LIVES AND THEIR COMMITMENTS.

AND SO I'M ACTUALLY LOOKING TO THEM AS PART OF THE PROCESS OF LEADING THE WAY THROUGH THIS MORASS.

YOU KNOW, I'M HOPING THAT TO THE EXTENT THAT WE HAVEN'T -- ALL MY GENERATION, GENERATION X AS IT WERE HAVING BEEN APPROPRIATELY ALARMED TO THE CRISES THAT WE HAVE FACING, THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE IT.

>> AND PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNED THE EXECUTIVE ORDER I GUESS AROUND HIS INAUGURATION WHICH CALLED FOR A PATRIOTIC EDUCATION.

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

AND ALSO, AGAIN, I WANT TO ASK YOU THE THOUGHT PROCESS.

IS THERE -- DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS ROOM FOR A MORE IDEOLOGICALLY DIVERSE EDUCATION CURRICULUM, OR INDEED DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANYTHING THAT JUSTIFIES THE DEMAND FOR MORE DIVERSE EXHIBITIONS IN VARIOUS CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS?

IS THAT EVEN SOMETHING REAL THAT YOU WOULD -- YOU WOULD ACCEPT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S REMARKABLE IS THAT THERE IS EXTREME IDEOLOGICAL DIVERSITY IN HIGHER EDUCATION AND CERTAINLY IN MUSEUMS.

YOU KNOW IN MY HOME STATE OF ALABAMA THERE IS THE EQUAL JUSTICE INITIATIVE IN MONTGOMERY, AND LITERALLY ONE HIGHWAY STOP AWAY THERE'S THE CONFEDERACY MUSEUM.

I MEAN, THERE IS EXTREME IDEOLOGICAL AND DIVERSITY.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY SEEING IS AN ATTACK ON THE FREE EXERCISE OF IDEAS THAT'S COMING FROM THE RIGHT.

I THINK IT'S EXACTLY UPSIDE DOWN FROM THE WAY THEY DESCRIBE IT.

AND SO THERE IS -- CERTAINLY WE SHOULD HAVE ROOM FOR A DIVERSE SET OF VIEWPOINTS, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED WHOSE VOICES ARE UNDER ATTACK.

AND SO THERE'S THIS SORT OF TRANSITION FROM A LONG HISTORY OF SILENCING AND EXCLUSION TO THIS BRIEF WINDOW, REALLY JUST A GENERATION OF OPENING UP SOME OF THE DOORS, AND THEN THIS INTENSE BACKLASH AGAINST IT.

AND I THINK THE BACKLASH IS IN PART BECAUSE OF HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEEPLY MOVED BY THE STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN MARGINALIZED.

YOU KNOW, IF WE THINK JUST -- YOU KNOW, JUST TEN YEARS AGO THE SOCIETY STARTED TO OPEN UP, AND WE SAW THE IMPACT AROUND THE WORLD OF THE GEORGE FLOYD PROTESTS, THE RESPONSE TO TRAYVON MARTIN.

AND SO THERE'S ALMOST THERE'S AN EFFORT TO OPEN THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED BY THE PURSUITS OF A WIDE ARRAY OF STORY TELLING.

>> YOU KNOW, NARROWING THE FOCUS THIS CONTROVERSY AROUND AMY SHERALD, THE ARTIST WHO BECAME FAMOUS -- EVEN MORE FAMOUS AFTER SHE PARTICIPATED MICHELLE OBAMA'S OFFICIAL PORTRAIT AS FIRST LADY, SHE WITHDREW HER PAINTING OF A BLACK TRANS-WOMAN HOLDING A TORCH LIKE THE STATUE OF LIBERTY, AS WE'RE SEEING IT ON THE COVER OF "THE NEW YORKER" THERE.

SHE HEARD THE CONTROVERSY OVER THIS.

APPARENTLY SHE CANCELED HER ENTIRE SHOW THERE.

SHE'S MOVED IT.

THAT IN ITSELF IS QUITE -- QUITE SCARY.

I MEAN, THAT'S A REAL ACTUAL, YOU KNOW, BRICKS AND MORTAR EVENT THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

I UNDERSTAND YOU USED TO OWN AN AMY SHERALD.

AM I -- AM I SPEAKING OUT OF TURN?

>> NO, I DID.

AND I -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS -- THAT ACTION IN THIS MOMENT IS ACTUALLY AN EXAMPLE OF THE WAY ARTISTS AND INTELLECTUALS ARE USING THE OPPORTUNITY OF THE MOMENT TO MAKE POLITICAL JUDGMENTS ABOUT THE WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE.

SHE'S PART OF THE VISION AND JUSTICE CONVENING THAT I TALKED ABOUT PREVIOUSLY THAT'S HAPPENING IN OCTOBER.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THE ARTS IN VARIOUS CAPACITIES WHO ARE ACTUALLY NOT SIMPLY BEING -- EXPERIENCING THIS AS A CHILLING EFFECT BUT INSTEAD ARE EMBRACING THIS AS A MOMENT TO ASSERT VALUES AND COMMITMENTS TO DEMOCRACY, WHICH I THINK IS REALLY WHAT IS REQUIRED OF US IN THIS MOMENT.

>> SO LASTLY BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT, ISN'T IT, DEMOCRACY VERSUS THE CREEPING ANTI-DEMOCRATIC SPIRIT.

DO YOU HAVE HOPE THAT AMERICA WILL SORT ALL THIS OUT AND WILL ACTUALLY MAINTAIN ITS DEMOCRACY AS A BEACON TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AS IT'S ALWAYS BEEN?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS A -- IT'S A FASCINATING QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, DEMOCRACY IS NEVER STATIC.

IT IS A DOING.

I THINK THE WAY THAT THE ORGANIZER MIRIUM CABA SAYS THAT HOPE IS A DISCIPLINE, THAT WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO HOPE, AND WE DEMONSTRATE OUR HOPE BY ACTUALLY PAVING IN WAYS THAT BRING US CLOSER TO THE COMMUNITY AND DEEPER INCLUSION.

SO THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL WE DO?

AND I'M HOPING THAT WE WILL DO SOMETHING -- MANY THINGS THAT ARE JUST, THAT ARE DEEPLY HUMANE, AND THAT RESIST THE IDEA THAT ONLY SOME OF US IN THIS COUNTRY MATTER.

>> WELL, CERTAINLY WE SEE SOME OF THE COURT -- THE COURT DECISIONS TRYING TO HOLD UP THE PRINCIPLE OF CONSTITUTIONAL LEGALITY.

AND IT'S A VERY INTERESTING TOPIC BECAUSE EVERYONE AROUND THE WORLD IS LOOKING AT THE UNITED STATES AS WELL.

SO PROFESSOR IMANI PERRY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTERVENTION ON THIS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> FROM FIRING THE CDC DIRECTOR TO TERMINATING RESEARCH FOR SOME LIFESAVING VACCINES, RFK JR. HAS BEEN TEARING APART THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

BUT SENATORS GAVE HIM A GRILLING AT THE HEARING EARLIER TODAY ON HIS CONTROVERSIAL AND WHAT MOST EXPERTS SAY DANGEROUS DECISIONS AS HEALTH SECRETARY.

HE FIRED BACK ACCUSING THE CDC OF FAILING TO KEEP AMERICANS HEALTHY.

>> WE ARE THE SICKEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO FIRE PEOPLE AT THE CDC.

THEY DID NOT DO THEIR JOB.

THIS WAS THEIR JOB TO KEEP US HEALTHY.

>> AND WHEN PUSHEDEN THE VITAL ROLE OF VACCINES DURING COVID, KENNEDY CLAIMED INCORRECTLY THAT WE WERE, QUOTE, LIED TO ABOUT EVERYTHING.

>> WE WERE LIED TO ABOUT -- ABOUT NATURAL IMMUNITY.

WE WERE LIED TO ABOUT -- YOU KNOW, WE WERE TOLD AGAIN AND AGAIN THE VACCINES WOULD PREVENT TRANSMISSION, THEY'D PREVENT INFECTION.

IT WASN'T TRUE.

>> DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM IS THE FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA'S CENTER OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY.

AND HIS NEW BOOK "THE BIG ONE" EXAMINES THE GLOBAL PANDEMIC AND HOW WE SHOULD PREPARE FOR THE NEXT ONE.

HE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN WHY THE HEALTH SECRETARY'S LATEST MOVE COULD SPELL DISASTER.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR NEW BOOK IS ENTITLED "THE BIG ONE," HOW WE MUST PREPARE FOR FUTURE DEADLY PANDEMICS.

BEFORE WE GET TO WHAT'S IN THE BOOK, I REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT'S IN THE NEWS THESE DAYS.

JUST ON AUGUST 5th THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES DEPARTMENT ANNOUNCED THE CUT OF $500 MILLION IN mRNA RESEARCH, WHICH WILL IMPACT 22 PROJECTS BEING LED BY BIG PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES, RIGHT?

IN A RECENT INTERVIEW THERE YOU SAID, I CAN SAY UNEQUIVOCALLY THIS WAS THE MOST DANGEROUS PUBLIC HEALTH DECISION I'VE EVER SEEN MADE BY A GOVERNMENT BODY.

EXPLAIN WHY?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, AGAIN, ASSUMING THE NEXT PANDEMIC MIGHT VERY WELL BE INFLUENZA, THAT'S A VIRUS THAT COULD EASILY KILL EVEN MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN WE SAW WITH COVID.

OUR ABILITY TO RESPOND TO THAT GOES BACK TO VACCINES.

AND CURRENTLY THE CAPACITY WE HAVE IN THE WORLD TO MAKE VACCINES IS LIMITED.

WE USE CHICKEN EGGS TO GROW THE VIRUS IN.

IN A YEAR OR TWO, 15 MONTHS AFTER THE PANDEMIC BEGINS WE CAN ONLY MAKE ENOUGH VACCINE TO VACCINATE LESS THAN A QUARTER OF THE WORLD.

IT TURNS OUT THE mRNA TECHNOLOGY, THE ONE WE USE FOR COVID ACTUALLY CAN BE APPLIED TO INFLUENZA, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO PROTECT A WHOLE LOT MORE.

IT'LL STILL PROVIDE THAT SAME PROTECTION WE SAW WITH THE COVID VACCINES, BUT WE CAN MAKE ENOUGH VACCINE WITHIN A YEAR TO PROBABLY VACCINATE THE WHOLE WORLD.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE IN MILLIONS OF LIVES LOST, JUST THAT ONE SIMPLE DECISION.

AND WE NEED THESE VACCINES BADLY FOR FUTURE PANDEMICS, AND RIGHT NOW THE LIKELIHOOD OF THAT HAPPENING IS CLOSE TO ZERO BECAUSE OF THAT DECISION.

>> AS PART OF THE RATIONAL FOR THESE CUTS, HE SAYS THE DATA SHOWS THESE FAIL, WE'RE SHIFTING THAT FUNDING TO SAFER BROADER PLATFORMS THAT REMAIN EFFECTIVE EVEN AS VIRUSES MUTATE.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> WELL, LET ME PUT THIS INTO CONTEXT.

ONE IS SCIENCE.

SCIENCE HAS GIVEN US THE MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS IN HEALTH OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS THAT MEANT THAT LIFE EXPECTANCY ROSE FROM THE 50s INTO THE 80-YEAR-OLDS JUST IN ONE -- OR IN A HUNDRED YEARS.

AND TODAY WE HAVE TO COUNT ON SCIENCE.

UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN MR. RFK IS PROMOTING IS WHAT WE CALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS.

WHAT THE PUBLIC HAS TO UNDERSTAND WHILE HIS COMMENTS SOUND VERY PROFESSIONAL AND MEANINGFUL, IN MANY CASES THEY MAKE NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

SO WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO EMPHASIZE IF WE WANT TO MAINTAIN THE KIND OF HEALTH PROTECTION WE'VE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY AND AROUND THE WORLD AND IMPROVEMENTS ON IT EVEN WHEN WE'VE HAD GREAT CHALLENGES WITH INFECTIOUS DISEASES, WE HAVE TO STICK WITH THE SCIENCE.

IF WE FOLLOW THE COMMENTS, THE RECOMMENDATIONS, OR THE ACTIONS OF MR. KENNEDY, WE ARE DOOMED TO SEE PUBLIC HEALTH REALLY DENIGRATE GREATLY.

>> BACK IN 2017 YOU WROTE A BOOK CALLED "DEADLIEST ENEMY."

AND IT WAS PRESCIENT IN A WAY, AND NOW YOU'VE TEAMED UP WITH THE SAME AUTHOR AND YOU WROTE "THE BIG ONE," HOW I MUST PREPARE FOR FUTURE PANDEMICS.

AND I THINK A LOT OF VIEWERS WILL BE SURPRISED THAT YOUR FEAR IS NOT COVID-19, IT'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, WORSE.

AND YOU PLAY OUT THESE KIND OF WORSE CASE SCENARIOS AND HOW WE SHOULD PREPARE FOR THAT.

EXPLAIN.

>> WHEN I SAY WORST-CASE SCENARIO JUST TO BE CLEAR, I'M NOT EVEN SURE THIS SCENARIO WAS THE WORST CASE.

IT'S A VERY REALISTIC SITUATION.

IT'S THE -- LISTENERS MAY REMEMBER BACK IN 2003 WE HAD A GLOBAL OUTBREAK OF SARS.

AT THAT TIME THE FIRST REAL CORONAVIRUS INFECTION THAT CAUSED SERIOUS ILLNESS IN HUMANS.

BECAUSE THAT VIRUS WAS NOT VERY INFECTIOUS WE WERE ACTUALLY ABLE TO SUPPRESS ITS TRANSMISSION AND STOP IT FROM SPREADING AROUND.

BUT IT DID KILL 15 TO 20% OF THE PEOPLE THAT GOT INFECTED.

THEN CAME MERS, ANOTHER CORONAVIRUS INFECTION IN 2012 IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THAT VIRUS THEN ALSO SPREAD TO SOUTH KOREA IN 2015 WHEN A VISITOR TO SAUDI ARABIA RETURNED BACK WITH THIS VIRUS INFECTION.

IN THOSE INSTANCES THE MERS VIRUS KILLED ALMOST 35% OF THE PEOPLE IT HAD INFECTED.

SO YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE WITH WHAT HAPPENED WITH COVID WHEREAS ONLY ABOUT 1.5% OF PEOPLE DIED AND I SAY ONLY WITH GREAT REGRET.

SO THE POINT BEING HERE IF YOU HAD A NEW CORONAVIRUS THAT CAN KILL LIKE SARS OR MERS OR BE SPREAD LIKE SARS KOV2 OR COVID, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

GUESS WHAT, IN RECENT MONTHS WE'VE ACTUALLY FOUND THE VIRUS IN BATS IN CAVES IN CHINA THAT HAVE THE ABILITY TO SPREAD LIKE WHAT WE SAW IN COVID.

AND THEY HAVE THE SAME GENETIC PIECES THAT WOULD MAKE IT POSSIBLE THEM TO CAUSE SERIOUS DEATHS IN POTENTIALLY THAT 15 TO 20% RANGE.

THIS IS NOT SCIENCE FICTION IN THAT SENSE.

THIS IS I THINK IF ANYTHING A HARBINGER OF THINGS TO COME REALITY WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

>> IF YOU CAN SUMMARIZE, WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST MISTAKES WE SHOULD BE LEARNING FROM FROM COVID?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AS A SOCIETY THIS IS GOING TO LAST FOR THREE YEARS OR MORE, AND THEREFORE WE PLANNED FOR IT MUCH LIKE YOU WOULD THINK OF A SEVERE HURRICANE, WHERE BASICALLY YOU FIND FOR 12 TO 18 HOURS IT'S HORRIBLE.

BUT YOU CAN GO INTO RECOVERY SHORTLY THEREAFTER.

AND SO ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE HAD EARLY ON PEOPLE WANTED TO APPROACH THIS FROM THE IDEA OF A LOCK DOWN AND CLOSING EVERYTHING DOWN AND WE'D COME OUT THE OTHER END.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAD A NUMBER OF OUR LEADERS SAYING THAT IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

WE IN JANUARY OF 2020 ACTUALLY LAID OUT THE FACT THIS WAS LIKELY TO LAST MANY YEARS, AS TWO, THREE, MAYBE EVEN FOUR.

AND WE HAD TO BE PREPARED HOW WE'RE GOING TO HANDLE FOR THAT.

AND WHAT OUR REAL GOAL WAS -- IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AT LEAST TO MAKE SURE OUR HOSPITALS WERE NOT OVERRUN.

THE ONE THING THAT COULD SAVE MORE PEOPLE'S LIVES IS TO HAVE ADEQUATE HEALTH CARE.

BUT IF YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR HOSPITAL AT 140, 150% CAPACITY, AT THAT POINT YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY CHANCE TO HOPEFULLY PROVIDE BETTER MEDICAL CARE.

AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS WE PROPOSED IS RATHER THAN DOING LOCKDOWNS IS USE WHAT WE CALL SNOW DAYS.

SO THAT IF, IN FACT, YOU ARE IN A COMMUNITY WHERE YOUR HOSPITAL BED CENSUS IS NOW AT 100% AND YOU KNOW THAT NUMBER EVERY DAY, IT'S PUBLICLY MADE AVAILABLE, AT THAT POINT YOU CAN SAY TO THE PUBLIC, PLEASE, FOR THE NEXT 10 TO 20 DAYS WE NEED TO BACK OFF WHATEVER WE CAN IN TERMS OF PUBLIC ENGAGEMENT, CROWDS COMING TOGETHER, ET CETERA, SO WE CAN GET THAT CENSUS DOWN IN OUR HOSPITALS AND HOPEFULLY PROVIDE BETTER MEDICAL CARE.

IF WE HAD DONE THAT, THAT WOULD HAVE MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD IN PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING THAT LOCKDOWNS AREN'T THE ANSWER.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF EVENTS JUST LIKE THAT THAT WE CAN LEARN A LOT FROM WITH COVID.

>> JUST THIS LAST WEEK WE HAD THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTERS OF DISEASE CONTROL REMOVED BY RFK JR., AND WE HAD SEVERAL OFFICIALS WHO RESIGNED.

ONE OF THE OFFICIALS IN AN INTERVIEW SAID THAT BASED ON WHAT I'M SEEING, BASED ON WHAT I'VE HEARD WITH THE NEW MEMBERS OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES, THEY ARE REALLY MOVING IN AN IDEOLOGICAL DIRECTION WHERE THEY WANT TO SEE THE UNDOING OF VACCINATION.

THEY WANT TO SEE THE UNDOING OF mRNA VACCINATION.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR OUR PUBLIC HEALTH?

>> WELL, IN VERY SIMPLE TERMS, IT'S A DISASTER.

WE ARE LITERALLY WATCHING 100 YEARS OF PUBLIC HEALTH ACTIVITY THAT HAD RESULTS IN SAVING MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF LIVES POTENTIALLY FLUSHED DOWN THE DRAIN.

AND IT'S THAT IMPORTANT FOR THE PUBLIC TO UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BE TALKING TO YOUR LOCAL, NATIONAL AND ELECTED OFFICIALS SAYING IS THIS THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT YOU WANT TO PROVIDE TO US?

BECAUSE THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE WHERE ONE DAY WE'LL STILL HAVE A DEBATE, WELL, WHICH ONE WAS RIGHT?

I CAN TELL YOU WHAT WILL BE RIGHT.

THE SCIENCE SIDE WILL BE RIGHT BECAUSE OF THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO WILL DIE BECAUSE OF FOLLOWING THE SAME KIND OF IDEOLOGY APPROACH ARE GOING TO BECOME VERY APPARENT IN NOT A TOO DISTANT OF A FUTURE.

AGAIN, IF WE HAVE THAT SAME MIND-SET GOING INTO A PANDEMIC RIGHT NOW, YOU WOULD BE IN UTTER DISASTER.

AND IT'S NOT JUST HHS AND THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICESSERVIC SECRETARY KENNEDY HEADS UP.

RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO ONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, NO ONE WHO HAS OVERSEEN BIOPREPAREDNESS FOR A FUTURE BIOLOGICAL EVENT, ONE THAT MIGHT BE EVEN MAN MADE MEANING A BIOTERRORIST ATTACK OR A PANDEMIC.

THIS IS SUCH A MAJOR, MAJOR SHORTCOMING IN OUR PREPAREDNESS, AND SO I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE A STEP BACK.

I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT, AGAIN, IDEOLOGICALLY IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THEY DID A LOT OF GOOD THINGS TO HELP US GETTER PREPARED FOR A BIOPREPAREDNESS EVENT.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHY NOW SUDDENLY THAT TYPE OF ACTIVITY IS FROWNED ON IF NOT TOTALLY DISCOURAGED WHEN, IN FACT, THAT WAS THE HALLMARK OF THE TRUMP ONE ADMINISTRATION.

>> WE HAD RECENTLY A MAN WHO OPENED FIRE AT THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL IN HASN'T, AND HE WAS MOTIVATED IN PART I GUESS BY HIS DISCONTENT WITH THE COVID-19 VACCINE.

AND IT COMES BACK TO THAT DISINFORMATION QUESTION.

ON THE ONE HAND ON THE COLUMN HERE YOU'VE GOT SCIENTISTS WORKING WITH A SERIES OF FACTS.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EFFICACY AND TRYING TO COMMUNICATE BETTER.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE TEAM THAT WANTS TO DISINFORM AND ACTIVELY, YOU KNOW, ENGAGE USERS FOR THEIR CLICKS, ET CETERA, THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY OF THAT.

THEY JUST HAVE TO HAVE EMOTIONAL APPEALS AND KIND OF GET INTO SOMEBODY'S HEAD, AND THAT IS PRETTY EFFECTIVE.

>> THAT'S SCARY.

NOW, LET ME JUST TELL YOU ON A PERSONAL LEVEL HAVING BEEN IN THE FRONT ROW OF THE PANDEMIC RESPONSE DURING COVID AND HAVING RECEIVED DEATH THREATS.

I KNOW WHAT THE CONCERNS ARE OF MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES IN TERMS OF WHY DO WE DO OUR JOB EVERY DAY?

WHAT DO WE DO TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILY MEMBERS?

THIS IS A HUGE CHALLENGE.

AND IN THE FIRST INSTANCE THE PUBLIC HAS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S AT RISK HERE, IS LOSING PUBLIC HEALTH WILL MEAN THERE WILL BE MANY, MANY MORE OUTBREAKS OF DISEASES WE CAN CONTROL BY VACCINES, BY HAVING SAFE WATER SUPPLIES, DEALING WITH MOSQUITO POPULATIONS THAT ARE SUDDENLY SPREADING, EXOTIC VIRUSES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH DOES ALL THE TIME.

AND IF PUBLIC HEALTH DOES ITS JOB REALLY WELL, YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT ANYTHING BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE CHALLENGE IS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE HAVE ENJOYED SO MUCH PREVENTION FROM GROUPS LIKE CDC OVER THE YEARS, PEOPLE SAY, AH, IT'S NOT REALLY NECESSARY.

WELL, IT WILL COME BACK.

AND, AGAIN, I JUST WANT TO STRESS OVER AND OVER AGAIN WE CAN'T PREPARE FOR THE BIG ONE IF WE'RE NOT, IN FACT, PREPARING FOR EVERY DAY EVENTS RIGHT NOW.

SOMEBODY HAS TO CALL THE QUESTION, ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE TO PURSUE THE KIND OF ACTIVS THAT MR. KENNEDY WANTS US TO DO, THAT SOME OF THE PUBLIC ARE SURELY EVEN WILLING TO BRING VIOLENCE TO THE TABLE TO DEAL WITH THAT ISSUE?

OR ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN THAT SCIENCE-BASED APPROACH WHERE BASICALLY WE'RE CONSTANTLY LEARNING ABOUT THESE INFECTIOUS DISEASES OR OTHER HEALTH CONDITIONS AND TRYING TO MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.

REMEMBER NO ONE GOES INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO GET RICH.

NO ONE GOES INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO BECOME FAMOUS.

PEOPLE GO INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO SERVE.

THEY GO INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO HELP.

AND THAT'S I THINK THE QUESTION WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO GET US BACK TO THAT NORM?

>> RIGHT NOW OUR CONVERSATION SO FAR HAS BEEN FOCUSED PRIMARILY ON THE UNITED STATES, BUT I ALSO WANT TO ASK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN USAID HAS BEEN SLASHED, AS IT HAS BEEN?

AND WHAT OUR VISIBILITY IS FOR VIRUSES, FUTURE PANDEMICS OVERSEAS BECAUSE VIRUSES DON'T CARE ABOUT BORDERS, RIGHT?

AND I WONDER IS THERE, YOU KNOW, THAT LOSS OF FUNDING AND INFRASTRUCTURE?

CAN YOU EITHER QUANTIFY OR QUALIFY THE EFFECTS THAT THAT WILL HAVE DOWNSTREAM?

>> WE HAD WITHDRAWN SUPPORT, AS YOU NOTED, FROM USAID, ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL SOFT POWER EFFORTS EVER PUT FORWARD BY ANY GOVERNMENT NOT JUST OURS IN TERMS OF LIVES SAVED, IN TERMS OF ENDEARMENT OF LOCALS, IN COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD FOR STATE SUPPORT, AND AS WELL THE FACT WE PULLED OUT OF THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

WE'RE NO LONGER A MEMBER THERE.

WE'RE NOT PART OF THE ROUTINE COMMUNICATIONS.

WE ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO KNOWLEDGE AT W.H.O., BUT WE'RE ALSO NOT LEARNING FROM IT.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY INFECTIOUS DISEASES, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT START ON A DISTANT SHORE AND CAN COME TO OUR COUNTRY.

LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2015, '16 WITH EBOLA IN AFRICA AND THE CONCERN WE HAD ABOUT IT GETTING HERE.

BY NOT PARTICIPATING ON THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL, WE ACTUALLY SHOOT OURSELVES IN THE FOOT IN TERMS OF PROTECT OURSELVES.

BORDERS IN AND OF THEMSELVES WILL NOT KEEP INFECTIOUS AGENTS FROM GOING FROM ONE COUNTRY TO ANOTHER.

WHAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE IS STOPPING THOSE IN THEIR TRACKS IN THOSE COUNTRIES WHERE THEY BEGIN.

WE ARE LOSING THAT OPPORTUNITY.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE A RESURGE PS IN HIV/AIDS, A RESURGENCE OF TUBERCULOSIS AND A RESURGENCE OF MALARIA, AND GUESS WHAT?

THEY'RE ALL GOING TO LAND IN THE UNITED STATES EVENTUALLYCH AND BECAUSE WE ALL LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE TRAVEL IS SO UBIQUITOUS WE'RE GOING TO SEE U.S. CITIZENS GOING TO COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD BEING IN MUCH GREATER RISK BECAUSE WE'RE PULLING OUT OF THAT ARENA.

WE ARE NOT HELPING US AT ALL.

WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT PUTTING AMERICA FIRST.

THIS PUTS AMERICA LAST.

>> YOU'RE LEADING AN INITIATIVE CALLED THE VACCINE INTEGRITY PROJECT.

WHAT -- WHAT'S THE NEED YOU'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS WITH THIS?

>> WELL, WHAT WE REALIZED EARLY ON AFTER THE ELECTION WAS THAT BASED ON THE 2025 DOCUMENT AND WHAT THE PRIORITIES WERE FOR DISMANTLING PUBLIC HEALTH, THAT ONE OF THE FIRST AREAS TO GO WAS LIKELY TO BE VACCINES.

AND OF COURSE WITH MR. KENNEDY BEING DOMINATED FOR HEALTH SECRETARY OF HUMAN SERVICES, WE RECOGNIZE HIS MAJOR ANTI-VACCINE THEME WAS GOING TO BE CARRIED THROUGH.

ACTUALLY IN NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR I WROTE AN ARTICLE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" LAYING OUT WHAT LIKELY COULD BE LOST IN PUBLIC HEALTH IN THE FUTURE WITH A KENNEDY HHS APPOINTMENT.

AND SURE ENOUGH THE VACCINE ISSUES THAT WE WORRIED ABOUT ARE HAPPENING.

LET ME JUST SAY THAT AT THIS POINT IT'S VERY, VERY CLEAR THAT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE'RE SEEING HAPPEN AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN UNLESS WE SEE CONGRESS STEP UP AND BEGIN TO INSERT ITSELF INTO THIS PROCESS.

REMEMBER AT THE TIME WHEN THE CONFIRMATION HEARINGS WERE HELD WE ACTUALLY HAD MR. KENNEDY PROMISING TO -- SECRETARY -- OR TO SENATOR CASSIDY THAT HE WOULD NOT TAKE VACCINES AWAY FROM ANYONE.

WELL, HE DID.

THAT REALLY BROUGHT US AT OUR CENTER IN MINNEAPOLIS WITH THE IDEA THAT WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP OUT IF, IN FACT, THE ACIP, THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE OF PRACTICES IS SUDDENLY DONE IN?

WHAT ROLES DO THEY PLAY?

AND SO WE STARTED THIS NEW INITIATIVE.

AND WITH THAT WE ACTUALLY FIRST IN FOCUS GROUPS WITH A NUMBER OF VACCINE ENTERPRISE EXPERTS ALL THE WAY FROM RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT TO THE FINAL SHOT INTO THE ARM TO SAY WHAT CAN ANY NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION DO TO HELP SUPPORT WHAT WAS THERE WITH ACIP?

AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE LEARNED WAS, IN FACT, TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR VACCINE USE, WE NEEDED TO HAVE A COMPREHENSIVE DATA THAT THE ACIP USED TO PRESENT.

WELL, WE PICK THAT UP.

WE ACTUALLY AS A EFFORT OUT OF THE VIP PROJECT BEGAN DOING A REVIEW OF ALL OF THE VACCINE INFORMATION FOR COVID, FOR RSV, AND FOR INFLUENZA, TO HAVE IT IN TIME FOR THIS UPCOMING WINTER SEASON.

AND WE DID THE ANALYSIS WHERE WE WERE ABLE TO IDENTIFY OVER 17,500 DIFFERENT PIECES OF INFORMATION, ARTICLES ABOUT THESE VACCINES.

WE SUMMARIZED THAT USING A VERY SPECIFIC PROTOCOL APPROACH, AND THAT IS NOW THE INFORMATION BEING USED BY OUR MEDICAL SOCIETIES TO DETERMINE THEIR OWN VACCINE RECOMMENDATIONS.

AND SO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE WE ARE NOW PROVIDING WHAT ACIP ONCE DID.

>> THE DIRECTOR FOR INFECKINOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT DOES SOUND LIKE BASIC COMMON SENSE ALMOST ANYONE CAN GET BEHIND.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, IT DOES TAKE TWO TO TANGO.

THIS ARG TINIAN PAIR WAS CROWNED CHAMPIONS OF THIS YEAR'S WORLD TANGO TOURNAMENT WHICH TOOK PLACE IN BUENOS AIRES OVER THE PAST TWO WEEKS.

GLIDING GRACEFULLY ACROSS THE STAGE WITH THEIR DRAMATIC TWISTS AND SLIDING FOOTWORK, THE DUO WAS AMONG 2,000 DANCERS COMPETING ACROSS 50 VENUES, MAKING THIS THE LARGEST TANGO GATHERING IN THE WORLD.

AND WITH A RECORD NUMBER OF INTERNATIONAL PARTICIPANTS INCLUDING FROM GERMANY, JAPAN, AND THE UNITED STATES SHOWING A GROWING LOVE FOR THIS UNIQUE DANCE FROM ALL OVER.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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