ALI ROGIN: It isn't hard to find advice# for how to live a healthier life.

It's## working that guidance into your daily# routine that can be the most difficult## part.

Turning those suggestions# for better health into effective## policy is the challenge public health# professionals grapple with every day.

And right now, officials who work on these# issues are under even more pressure than usual.## Just this past weekend, the White house# fired about 1,300 staffers at the Centers## for Disease Control before rehiring half of them.# Former CDC director Dr.

Tom Frieden's new book,## "The Formula for Better Health,"# takes on these challenges.

In it,## he shares lessons from his own public# health career about how to close the gap## between awareness of health challenges# and the actions needed to solve them.

Dr.

Frieden, thank you so much# for joining us.

This book spans## your experiences over your entire career,# which you spent as a disease detective,## as New York City health commissioner during# a massive tuberculosis outbreak.

You were## CDC director during the Ebola crisis.

And# then you also witnessed the COVID pandemic.

As a former CDC director, why was it important# to you to write this book at this time?

DR.

TOM FRIEDEN, Author, "The Formula for Better# Health": I began writing this book a decade## ago in the world's first Ebola epidemic, when# West Africa was struggling with health systems## in free fall.

And it became really clear that# people don't understand what public health is,## why it is so important.

It might make the# difference between their life and their## death.

And for people in public health, there's# a lot to learn about how to do it successfully.

ALI ROGIN: You talk about the importance of# public health.

Not just that, but also the ways## in which it complements individual choices that# people make to keep their health up.

You write,## quote, promoting changes individual behavior is# not the core of public health.

It's a symptom## of public health failure.

When public# health succeeds, societal changes make## the individual's default choices healthy.

I# thought that really summed it up really well.

So why is it that public health# is a really important complement## to those individual choices?

Why is# it such a key part of the formula?

TOM FRIEDEN: It's not a question of,# is it individual responsibility or## societal responsibility?

It's both.

Society has a# responsibility to structure things so that if you## just go with the flow and go about your business,# you won't end up sick or disabled or dying young.

At the same time, it doesn't take any of us# off the hook.

There are things that we can do## as individuals.

Nobody's going to slap sunblock# on you or move your legs to exercise.

There are## certain things that you need to do yourself.

But# we as a society, we collectively as a community,## can do things that I outline in this book# that will allow each of us to live longer,## healthier lives.

They will help# our businesses be more productive,## our economy better, and as# a country, to be healthier.

ALI ROGIN: You also write about how public health# falls victim to what you call the Cassandra Curse,## named for the prophet of Greek mythology# who was able to see future tragedies,## but cursed so that nobody would believe her.## Give us an example of the Cassandra# Curse and how do we break free from it?

TOM FRIEDEN: Fundamentally, the Cassandra Curse# is about our inability to take actions in our own## best interest.

And what drives it.

What became# clear, as I did the research for this book,## what drives it is that our perceptions of# ourselves, of our world and of the future, are## not accurate.

There are inaccuracies there that# make us vulnerable to getting harmed or killed.

One of them is something called hyperbolic# discounting that we shortchange the future.## If smokers knew that they had a 50-50 chance# of dropping dead after their next cigarette,## very few people would smoke.

And# yet the likelihood of dying from## tobacco use is 50 percent, unless people quit.

One thing that we can do is we can imagine those# distant consequences as happening tomorrow,## or we can reward ourselves with things that# are good in the short term and also good in## the long term.

There are ways to break the# Cassandra Curse, but if we don't do that,## we may be condemned to tragic illnesses# and deaths that could have been prevented.

ALI ROGIN: And the framework for breaking that# curse that you lay out, you call it that See,## Believe, create, formula.

How does that work?

TOM FRIEDEN: The formula for better health is# a formula that has already saved millions of## lives.

It can save millions more, and it may# save your own.

It is see, believe, create,## see the invisible.

See things that are# affecting your health or driving things## in society or blocking your from acting or whether## or not you're succeeding.

See that# clearly to understand your health.

Believe that you can make a difference.# Because sometimes we think things are## inevitable when they're not.

And then the hardest# part, create a healthier future through rigorous,## simple, clear, systematic action# that overcomes the barriers that## will otherwise undermine our health, our# children's health, our community's health.

ALI ROGIN: The HHS is in a# period of tremendous upheaval.## Many of the programs that you champion in# this book that are critical to this formula,## such as surveillance of communities over the long# term, global health efforts, have been affected## and many of them cut.

What concerns you most# about this moment we're in terms of public health?

TOM FRIEDEN: What we're seeing is# very aggressive destruction of our## public health protections.

And you see# sometimes some of the things put back,## disease detectives put back, or people who# are working on Ebola outbreaks put back,## or the National Center for Health Statistics,# some of those individuals restored.

What worries me is that think of public health# as a house.

You know, if the window or the## door or the roof falls off, you fix it.

But if the# basics, if the foundations are being undermined,## we are less safe and we as a country# will be sicker.

We will have higher## health care costs and we will have tragic# illnesses that could have been prevented.

ALI ROGIN: The tone of this book# is still very optimistic despite## some of the challenges.

What# gives you optimism right now?

TOM FRIEDEN: I am optimistic.

Facts are# stubborn things and even if they are## ignored and suppressed, they're still facts.

And# everyone wants to live a longer, healthier life.## And there are many things that we can agree on.# We should have healthier food.

Everyone should## have a primary care clinician who supports their# health.

Our health care system should do much## more for our health and we should get conflicts# of interest out of the decision making process.

ALI ROGIN: The book is "The Formula# for Better Health."

Dr.

Tom Frieden,## thank you so much for joining us.

TOM FRIEDEN: Thank you.