>> COLLEGES >> AND UNIVERSITIES HAVE BEEN VOLATILE PLACES SINCE THE OCTOBER 7 TOMAS ATTACK IN ISRAEL.

THIS HAS LED TO CONCERNS OVER FREE SPEECH AND SAFETY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.

LAST MONTH, THE PRESIDENT OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA AND MIT TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF A HOUSE COMMITTEE ON COMBATING ANTI-SEMITISM ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES RECEIVING BACKLASH FOR THEIR COMMENTS.

HERE'S A LOOK AT ONE OF THOSE CONTROVERSIAL MOMENTS FROM THAT HEARING.

>> AND AT HARVARD CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS VIOLATE HARVARD'S RULES, BULLYING AND HARASSMENT.

YES OR NO.

>> IT CAN BE DEPENDING ON THE CONTEXT.

WHAT'S THE CONTEXT?

>> TARGETED AS AN INDIVIDUAL TARGETED AS INDIVIDUAL.

IT'S TARGETED AT JEWISH STUDENTS, JEWISH INDIVIDUALS.

>> DO YOU UNDERSTAND YOUR TESTIMONY IS DEHUMANIZING DO UNDERSTAND THAT DEHUMANIZATION IS PART OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

>> JOINING US TO TALK MORE ABOUT THE RESPONSE FROM UNIVERSITIES IS TOM GINSBERG OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW POLITICAL SCIENCE, FACULTY, DIRECTOR OF THE FORUM FOR FREE INQUIRY AND EXPRESSION, PERFECT GUEST TO HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THIS TOPIC.

THAT'S ALL THE RAGE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES EVERYWHERE ELSE.

THAT'S BEEN VOLATILITY AT THE LOT OF PROTESTS OVER THE ISRAEL GAZA HOUSE.

THE UNIVERSITY HANDLED IT WELL, OF COURSE, I THINK LIKE EVERY OTHER UNIVERSITY WE'VE HAD OUR SHARE OPINIONS BEING VOICED ON BOTH SIDES.

WE'VE HAD SOME PROTESTS, BUT >> RELATIVE TO MANY OF THE OTHER UNIVERSITIES, IT'S BEEN FAIRLY QUIET IN THE SENSE THAT WE HAVEN'T HAD IT OPEN VIOLENCE ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

AND WE HAVEN'T HAD A OUTSIDE DONORS, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, WITHDRAW LIKE MANY OF THESE IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS THAT WERE AT THE CONGRESSIONAL HEARING, FOR EXAMPLE, OF COURSE, WE HAVE A LONG TRADITION OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH THERE.

SO I THINK THAT'S HELPED US A LITTLE BIT IN THIS PRESENT MOMENT.

FROM THE ADL THAT SOME OF THESE PROTESTS TURNED ANTI-SEMITIC WHERE THERE WAS ANTI-SEMITIC LANGUAGE.

HAVE EXPERIENCED YOU'VE SEEN YOU'VE SEEN THAT AND WHAT WOULD THE UNIVERSITY DO ABOUT THAT?

WELL, I'VE NOT SEEN YOU KNOW THE QUESTION, WHAT EXACTLY IS ANTI-SEMITISM?

WHAT THE LINE IS IS ITSELF CONTROVERSY SOMETHING THAT WE DO HAVE TO DISCUSS?

I DO THINK YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU GO BACK TO THOSE HEARINGS THE CALL FOR GENOCIDE, WE'RE NOT REALLY HEARING CALLS FOR GENOCIDE ON CAMPUS.

WE'RE HEARING CONTROVERSIAL LANGUAGE SUPPORTING PALESTINIAN RIGHTS AND SOME PEOPLE WOULD INTERPRET THAT AS BEING A CALL FOR GENOCIDE.

BUT THAT'S OPEN FOR DEBATE.

AND WE ARE, IN FACT, TRYING PROVIDE AS MANY OPPORTUNITIES FOR PEOPLE TO TALK THAT THROUGH, YOU KNOW, IN A CIVIL WAY.

AND WE SHOULD NOTE THAT THIS IS SO POLARIZING, THEIR PALESTINIAN MUSLIM AMERICAN GROUPS BELIEVE THAT THE U.S. SUPPORT OF ISRAEL IS OFFENSIVE TO THEM OR NOT SUPPORTING THEM.

IS JEWISH GROUPS THAT FEEL LIKE JUST THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT CALLING OUT ANTI-SEMITIC RHETORIC TOO MUCH.

SO IT IS, AS YOU SAID, A POLARIZING SO I HAVEN'T BEEN ON A UNIVERSITY CAMPUS IN A WHILE.

WHAT WHAT IS THE ATMOSPHERE IN TERMS OF WHAT KIND OF SPEECH IS ALLOWED?

WHAT KIND OF SPEECH GETS CANCELED, THE WHAT KIND OF SPEAKERS GET CANCELED BECAUSE OF AN UPROAR?

YEAH.

SO IN GENERAL, I THINK THIS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT CONGRESSIONAL HEARING SO CONTROVERSIAL IS THAT THOSE SCHOOLS THAT PRESIDENTS WERE UP THERE TESTIFYING WHILE THEY WERE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, PRESERVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, WE VALUE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

THEY IN FACT DO HAVE RECORDS OF SUPPRESSING SPEECH AND IS INVITING SPEAKERS AND CANCELING EVENTS WHEN THEY THINK IT'S GOING TO BE TOO CONTROVERSIAL AND SOMETHING LIKE THIS, THE ISRAEL HAMAS WAR.

YOU KNOW, IT'S SUCH A POLARIZING ISSUE.

THERE'S NO WAY REGULATE THAT WITHOUT SATISFYING ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

AND SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, I THINK THEY GOT IN TROUBLE THEIR HYPOCRISY.

THE FACT THAT THEY HAD NOT BEEN CONSISTENT OVER MANY YEARS IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND SAYING AND TO THAT ANSWER THAT THEY GAVE HIM THE CONGRESSIONAL HEARING THAT CALLING FOR THE GENOCIDE OF I GUESS IT'S A HYPOTHETICAL SORT SITUATION.

BUT WITH THAT, WOULD THAT BE CONSIDERED A?

YOU KNOW, HATE SPEECH THAT WOULD BE.

TAKEN ACTION ON.

BUT YOU MAKE OF ANSWER THAT IT DEPENDS ON THE CONTACT.

YEAH.

SO I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, BACKGROUND POINTS THAT WERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, IF YOU WANT TO SEE A CALL FOR THE GENOCIDE OF JEWS, JUST GOING TO TWITTER, THEY'RE THERE ALL THE TIME.

THERE'S ALL KINDS OF VIOLENT SPEECH THAT WE ALLOW BECAUSE OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

NOW, UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES LITTLE BIT SPECIAL BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO PROVIDE ENVIRONMENT FOR LEARNING.

AND AGAIN, I DON'T THINK WE'VE HEARD THAT CERTAINLY NOT ON OUR CAMPUS.

AND SO WE HAVEN'T HAD TO CONFRONT IT.

IF YOU HAD A TRUE CALL FOR GENOCIDE DIRECTED AT PEOPLE, THAT WOULD CERTAINLY VIOLATE POTENTIALLY HAVE POLICIES ON HARASSMENT AND BULLYING.

AND SO WE DO HAVE A FRAMEWORK FOR DEALING WITH THAT.

BUT I DO THINK WE'RE NOW IN A PHASE OF THIS CONTROVERSY AFTER THOSE HEARINGS BEFORE CONGRESS WHERE IN A WAY WHAT'S GOING ON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANTI-SEMITISM ANYMORE.

IT'S ABOUT CONGRESS REALLY TRYING TO REALLY ATTACK AND TRY TO GET 2 UNIVERSITY GOVERNANCE AND TRIED TO MAKE SOME POLITICAL POINTS OFF AND STARTED READING THIS YEAR IN THAT REGARD WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT GO OR THEY MIGHT TRY AND DICTATE WHAT UNIVERSITIES CAN ALLOW IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY TEACH YOU, WHAT KIND OF SPEECH THEY'LL WRITE ULTIMATELY UNOS UNIVERSITIES LIKE OURS ARE DEPENDENT ON FEDERAL RESEARCH MONEY AND THEY CAN HOT.

THEY CAN ATTACH STRINGS TO THAT MONEY.

YOU CAN TEACH THIS.

YOU CAN'T TEACH GENERALLY SPEAKING THE PUBLIC DOESN'T LIKE THAT APPROACH.

THEY THINK UNIVERSITIES SHOULD BE FREE TO SELF-GOVERN.

WE DID A POLL AT THE UNIVERSITY CHICAGO BACK IN SEPTEMBER AND THERE WASN'T MUCH SUPPORT FOR STATE INVOLVEMENT, WE STILL MIGHT SEE IT.

AND SO THAT'S WHERE WE REALLY DO HAVE TO GET OUR OWN HOUSES IN ORDER IN ORDER TO REALLY PROVIDE AN ENVIRONMENT FOR FREE EXPRESSION FOR STUDENTS.

CAN UNIVERSITIES GET THEIR OWN HOUSES IN ORDER MORE AND NOT BE, AS YOU SAY, HYPOCRITES ON THIS ISSUE.

YOU KNOW, I OFTEN GO BACK TO A STATEMENT.

ONE OF OUR PRESIDENTS MADE BACK IN 1935.

SAID A UNIVERSITY IS NOT A SOCIAL CLUB.

IT'S NOT A KINDERGARTEN.

IT'S NOT A POLITICAL PARTY.

IT'S A COMMUNITY OF SCHOLARS TRYING TO UNDERTAKE INQUIRY.

AND IF YOU START WITH THE INQUIRY RESEARCH ON THE TOUGH PROBLEMS THE WORLD FACES TODAY AS BEING OUR CORE MISSION.

WHY WE HAVE AN ARRANGEMENT WITH SOCIETY.

WHY HAVE NONPROFIT STATUS AND THINGS LIKE THIS.

THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO.

AND OF COURSE, TO DO THAT KIND OF INQUIRY.

YOU DO NEED A BROAD COMMUNITY, A VERY DIVERSE COMMUNITY.

YOU NEED TO HAVE FREE EXPRESSION OF CHALLENGE EACH OTHER'S IDEAS, GETTING BACK TO THOSE KIND OF THINGS I THINK IS THE SOLUTION IS.

AND I'M NOT PRONOUNCING, FOR EXAMPLE, ON ALL THE ISSUES OF THE DAY AS UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS HAVE BECOME QUITE ACCUSTOMED TO.

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO BE A UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR RIGHT NOW WHEN YOU HAVE STUDENTS IN SOME OF THEM MIGHT SAY THAT THIS CONTROVERSIAL PIECE OF LITERATURE FROM 1930'S OFFENSIVE TO ME AND I DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT OR THIS LEARNING SUBJECT OF U.S. HISTORY.

WORLD HISTORY IS IS TRIGGERING TO ME AND I DON'T WANT TO HEAR AND WHAT'S WHAT'S THE BALANCE HERE?

RIGHT?

SO I THINK IS UNIVERSES BECOME MORE EXPENSIVE.

WE START TO TREAT THE STUDENTS LIKE CUSTOMERS AND ONE BAD ASPECT OF THAT WOULD BEAT US SAY THAT THEY DON'T EVER HAVE TO ENCOUNTER AN IDEA THAT THEY DISAGREE WITH READING THAT THEY'RE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH.

THAT'S NOT REALLY THE JOB OF UNIVERSITIES, BUT EXAMPLE OF WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING.

SO I THINK IT'S NOT SO HARD TO BE UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS LONG.

YOU GO BACK TO THE IDEA THAT IT'S OUR ROLE TO CHALLENGE THE STUDENTS TO HAVE THEM READ THINGS THAT THEY DISAGREE WITH AND TO TEACH THEM TO LIVE IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY WHERE THEY'RE ALWAYS GOING TO BE ENCOUNTERING AND LIVING WITH PEOPLE THAT THEY DISAGREE.

THAT'S PART OF THE SKILL OF GOING TO UNIVERSITY BECOMING AN ADULT AND ADULT.

WHAT'S THAT?

WHAT'S A LINE DRAWN ON HAVING SPEAKERS COME IN AND SPEAK YOU KNOW, COME OUT AND SAY, I THINK THAT A HEARING POINTS OF VIEW SOMETIMES IS NECESSARY WITHIN REASON, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT SOMETIMES YES, THE CROSSES THE LINE.

SO WHERE WHERE THE UNIVERSITIES, WHERE SHOULD THEY WERE SURE THEY'D RATHER BECAUSE YOU KNOW SOMETHING TO CANCEL THE SPEAKERS BECAUSE THEY GET SO MUCH PRESSURE AND THEY JUST THEY BOW TO THE PRESSURE.

RIGHT?

AND OF COURSE, WE ALSO HAVE THE PHENOMENA NOW OF SPEAKERS TRY TO GET INVITED UNIVERSITIES JUST TO BE CANCELED.

THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY BAD FAITH ACTORS OUT WHO DO THAT JUST TO GET PUBLICITY AND JUST TO BE CANCELED AGAIN AND GET SOME PUBLIC.

DEFINITELY HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, RIGHT?

BUT THE RIGHT ANSWER CLEARLY IS THAT THE SOMEONE IS INVITED BY A STUDENT GROUP.

IT'S NOT UP TO THE UNIVERSITY TO DIS.

INVITE THEM.

IT'S ACTUALLY UP TO THE UNIVERSITY TO PROTECT THAT PERSON'S RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND NOT GIVEN TO PROTESTS.

ARE THE HECKLERS VETO AND THAT ALLOW THE PROTESTS TO GO ON OUTSIDE AND TOOK PROTEST.

YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, RIGHT?

BUT YOU CAN'T DISRUPT THE SPEECH AND THE REASON FOR THAT IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE OF WITH ENDORSE THE SPEAKER.

IT'S BECAUSE WE PROTECT THE AUTONOMY OF THE LISTENER THAT WE RESPECT THAT THE PERSON HEARING ALLEGEDLY OFFENSIVE SPEECH IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A JUDGMENT ON THEIR OWN, THAT THIS IS A GOOD IDEA OR BAD IDEA.

WE DON'T PATRONIZE THEM BY SAYING THESE IDEAS ARE OFF THE TABLE AND THAT'S, OF COURSE, I YOU KNOW, A TRADITIONAL WAY OF APPROACHING IT.

UNFORTUNATELY, MANY SCHOOLS, INCLUDING SOME OF THOSE AT CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THAT IN RECENT YEARS PLAYED A MUCH MORE ACTIVE ROLE IN POLICING WHO CAN COME TO CAMP.

YOU THINK IN THE SHORT TIME WE HAVE LEFT CAN CAN THOSE SCHOOLS COME TO A BETTER PLACE, A MORE MIDDLE GROUND ON THAT?

WELL, I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT THE YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S BECOME SUCH A PUBLIC ISSUE.

BUT I THINK ONE REACTION IT'S GOING TO BE IN SOME SENSE MOVING A LITTLE BIT MORE IN OUR DIRECTION FOR CHICAGO'S LONG HISTORY.

NOT SPEAKING OUT ON ISSUES OF THE DAY ON PROVIDING A A FREE SPEECH ENVIRONMENT WHEN THINGS WE HOPE TO DO IS TO BECOME A MODEL IN A WAY TO GENERATE IDEAS AND FORMATS THAT ALLOW STUDENTS TO SPEAK WITH EACH OTHER ACROSS DIFFERENCE TO LEARN FROM EACH OTHER AND BE ABLE TO BECOME DEMOCRATIC CITIZENS IN THE MOST PRODUCTIVE WAY LEARN HOW TO DISAGREE, BUT THEN MAYBE GO OUT FOR A DRINK AT THE END OF THE DAY AND ENJOY EACH OTHER'S COMPANY RIGHT TIME.

GINSBURG, FASCINATING CONVERSATION.

YOU