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Joe Gidjunis: I wish we were taught in school how to make friends after graduation.

As a kid, friendships happen naturally, classes, activities, milestones, but in adulthood, new partners, job changes, and expanding family make it challenging.

I'm guilty of being a crappy friend, especially those first few years after my son was born.

I was struggling.

I didn't want to burden anybody with how much pressure I felt to parent.

Talk about how tough foreign feedings have become, nor discussed the strain on my marriage.

Something unsaid during these early years, you can have a growing family and simultaneously feel alone.

Between my jobs, family, and chores, there's little energy left for seeing friends, let alone making new ones.

Jon Stewart: The one thing I didn't do and I probably should have done is make friends.

Trevor Noah: A lot of people have said, "Hey, how's your friend group?"

And they go, "Oh, man, I actually haven't seen my friends in a while."

Richard Reeves: The process of making and sustaining friends is just something that men are really struggling with right now.

Joe: And in the last 3 decades, the number of men with zero close friends quintupled and nearly half of men reported having two or fewer close buddies.

Across genders, half of Americans said they feel lonely.

Real connection is harder today.

It requires time, energy, and emotional courage.

Even if men commit to change tomorrow, where do we go?

A bar, church, bowling alley?

How many places exist where guys can go to meet new friends?

As social structures erode, meaningful interactions decline, increasing mental and physical health risks.

I wanna be better.

I don't want to be the friend who only shares a thumbs up emoji on Facebook.

I want friends who get me, care about what I care about, and laugh at my bad jokes.

I wanna show my son the importance of close friendships so he develops healthy ones himself, but it's gonna take more than small talk over a beer.

Can we dads rebuild our social skills, reboot our efforts to be honest with our struggles, and find the friendships we need to feel healthy and fulfilled?

This is "Grown Up Dad."

Joe: I thought about my dad's friendships over the 40+ years I've known him, and I think comic John Mulaney summed him up perfectly on SNL.

John Mulaney: And my dad has no friends, and your dad has no friends.

If you think your dad has friends, you're wrong.

Your mom has friends, and they have husbands.

Those are not your dad's friends.

Why do none of our baby boomer dads have friends?

Joe: Now I love my dad, but I'm not sure he's made a new friend in 50 years.

I'm not just pointing the finger at him though.

I'm a husband who's relied too much on my wife's social circle too.

I definitely made excuses not to talk with other dads.

But seeing my own father's struggles, I recognize I have some work to do.

I wanted to talk with an expert who put the problem into perspective.

The Office of the Surgeon General released an advisory recently about loneliness because social disconnection is more pervasive than previously understood.

The lack of social connection is now proven to be worse for your health than obesity, excessive alcohol, or smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

It's not just a pandemic effect either.

Since 2003, we've spent 20 fewer hours a month with friends.

The report added that there are significant links between a lack of social connection and suicide, suggesting that building strong friendships is one of the best ways to prevent it.

This is especially important for men.

In a separate report from the CDC, the suicide rate among males was nearly four times higher than the rate among females.

Males make up half of the population, but nearly 80% of the suicides.

I headed to Washington DC where I met with US Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy.

Joe: You've really talked about loneliness as an important issue for men, and boys, and early adolescence too, and everything that we're dealing with.

Why has it been such an important issue for you?

Vivek Murthy: Loneliness is one of those issues that I never thought I'd work on.

Didn't really even think of it as a health issue.

But when I was starting my term as surgeon general, I started hearing all these stories about loneliness on the road, and people wouldn't use that word lonely.

Joe: What would they say?

Vivek: They would often say, "You know, I feel like I'm carrying this entire burden in my life by myself."

Well, college students would tell me, "I'm on a campus surrounded by thousands of other students, but I feel invisible.

I feel like nobody knows me."

Joe: That's really hard.

Vivek: Parents and others would sometimes say to me, "You know, I feel like I disappeared tomorrow, no one would even know this."

Joe: It's heartbreaking, yeah.

Vivek: It's heartbreaking, and I was hearing it from all kinds of people of all different ages across the country, and that's really what spurred me to look more deeply into the issue of loneliness.

It resonated with me because as a kid, I had struggled a lot with loneliness in my own life.

Yeah, and I was very introverted, and shy, and struggled a lot with making friends, and-- Joe: Congratulations for coming out of your shell, that's great.

Vivek: Thank you, I mean, it's an ongoing process.

You know, I've struggled with loneliness as an adult at times as well.

And it's been hard, but it was never something I talked about because I felt this sense of shame that if I was lonely, then something must be wrong with me or you know, maybe I'm broken in some way.

And I felt embarrassed about that.

So, I never really shared and it was only years later that in talking to old classmates, that I realized that they too were struggling with loneliness, but none of us knew that we weren't the only ones.

So, I was sensitive to the issue and had seen it a lot in my practice of medicine, where many of the patients I cared for were struggling with loneliness even though we never learned about it in medical school.

Joe: How do we talk about this?

Vivek: So, I think we've gotten here by a number of factors that have built on each other.

And in the last half century, we have tended to participate less in the groups that used to bring us together like faith organizations, or recreation, or community orbs.

But we've also seen a trend in technology really transform how all of us interact.

You know, we don't have to go out to the grocery store or retail store as much to get things.

We may not have to interact with our neighbors.

Joe: No contact delivery, right?

Vivek: Yeah, and you also see that a lot of relationships have shifted from in-person to online, as social media use has increased.

So, you put a lot of that together with the increased emphasis on work, you know, and people are putting more time in at work and less time, you know, with friends and recreationally.

And you see a set up for loneliness.

Joe: I'm thinking about like, "Am I doing a good job?"

To myself as you're talking about asking the right questions, right?

Vivek: Yeah, and I think actually even for those of us who grew up having those skills because we weren't, you know, around technology and we were having to interact in person, we may find that those skills have gotten weaker over time.

The pandemic was a, classic example of an experience that weakened our social muscle across the board.

Many people noticed that even when that time ended, it was harder to come out and just get together with people or go up to a stranger and start a conversation.

So, we're all trying to build that muscle back up again.

It's still there, but the more we engage with one another, the more we have friends over, the more we spend time with colleagues at work, the more we approach strangers even just to say, "Hello," or to offer a kind word, the more we build that muscle.

Joe: Social skills are muscles like any other, you gotta train them.

Like coaching my little leaguers with stretches and push ups, I realized I had to rebuild my own.

While filming in Los Angeles, we gathered dads for an open talk with only one ask, do you want to talk about the challenges and joys of parenting?

I fired up the grill, grabbed a few beers, and it went far better than expected.

Joe: So, what are you guys really challenged with at home right now with your kids?

Dave Carlson: I mean, we talked a little bit about how we're engaging with our kids's feelings.

And the thing I struggle with the most is my kids have such big feelings.

Like they go from zero to ten just in a second.

Like trying to figure out how to get them to regulate themselves better and not like explode at the drop of a hat.

So, that's--you know, I've got--whether one kid is like--just has anxiety about like going to school tomorrow or a kid, you know, just like hates when her sister laughs at her, like it's just--and then the sister like pokes harder because she knows she's getting a reaction and the feelings get bigger.

So, yeah, how did--how to get peop--get my kids to recognize the size of the problem and react accordingly is the thing I'm struggling with.

Derek Reilly: Well, we're going through a divorce right now, which is--it's.

Joe: I'm sorry man.

Derek: It's cool, it's way better for everything, but I was a product of divorce so I was always very, very like anti--like getting divorced because I was like he needs stable home, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

But it's--it'll be cool, and he's dealing with it really, really well and I think we're doing it fine but it's like always checking yourself, and like kind of like thinking, and then you overthink it, and you're like, "Oh, man, am I messing him up or I should probably give him ice cream for dinner because you know, then he'll like me more than his mom," right?

It's like, you know, all that stuff, but it's--he's doing really well and I think like kids are so adaptable, you're just not giving them the tools that they need to be able to function in the society that we're going into, right?

Joe: So, how about you?

What's your biggest challenge right now?

Saul Valdez: You know, right now it's still trying to navigate the daycare childcare system.

It's a struggle.

We honestly still are trying to figure it out-- Joe: Childcare problem, like eighty, ninety thousand a year now?

Saul: Pretty much, yeah, it's another mortgage, you know, it's wild.

I'll tell you this story.

When my wife was four months pregnant, we made, you know, we completed the applications to the two daycares that are by our home.

We just got one call back like two weeks ago.

And he's about to be a year old, yeah.

Joe: Your child isn't born yet, and you're putting them on waiting lists for things.

The hell is this the system that we accept and we're like, "This is normal."

I was wondering what you guys feel, like where do you feel your own strength from, and what makes you feel good about yourself?

Sanjeev Sirpal: I don't know about masculinity, I mean, this--I kind of stopped, not that I ever worried about it.

As soon as I got married, I was like, "I don't care about masculinity," you know, like I'm married, it's my wife, like we're good, we're a team now.

But I think the strength is just like--I see strength in empathy, just being like a good person.

Like I see intrinsic wants in my kids for just wanting to do good things and be good people to people.

And I think there's strength in that.

I mean, I don't think there's concepts of like, you know, the machismo or like the, you know, we talk about like not talking about your feelings, and you know, we don't cry or anything like that.

Like I think it's way harder and way--takes way more strength to be that vulnerable.

Matt Bush: You're talking about like gender, like when you say--like air quotes, like traditional gender norms in the household, right?

Which was like, the dad would go to work and then the mom would stay home, right?

I feel like my own household anyway, it's a partnership with my wife.

It's shared responsibilities across the board, you know what I mean?

Financially and personality -wise, we fill each other's gaps.

Even if we're both upset about the same thing, instinctively she'll be kind of the strong one, and I'll feel those feelings, and then at some point it'll flip.

And I feel like pulling strength from that has been kind of helpful.

Joe: That equity in your household is really-- Matt: Equity is great, yeah, that's a great way, that's a great word, yeah.

Derek: Masculine equity.

Matt: Masculine equity, cool band name.

Derek: Hell yeah.

Joe: What was scheduled for an hour went for nearly three.

It felt great to share real issues and not stay within the narrow box I've been taught.

Even with this great experience, I wondered where our preconceptions about male friendship come from.

And how do we have meaningful conversations with friends we already have despite old habits.

Back in Philadelphia, I chatted with men's expert, Richard Reeves, who's the author, "Of Boys and Men" and who runs a research institute by the same name.

Richard Reeves: It's incredibly hard to say, "I need a friend, I'm lonely."

And maybe especially hard for men right now.

But it's really, I think one of the reasons why we see kind of men retreating to some of these online spaces and elsewhere, it's just because there's somewhere to go now.

Joe: I see, kind of what it is-- Richard: In some ways it's safer.

Real life has always been hard, but we didn't real--we didn't always have such a great online alternative, right?

Now there's somewhere else to go that can hit some of those buttons for us.

Joe: That's interesting.

Richard: How many close friends would you say you have?

Three or four?

Joe: That sounds pretty good.

Richard: Yeah, I mean they're in the UK.

Honestly, most of them are in the UK, but we have to-- Joe: Oh, that's hard.

Richard: Like we have boys' weekends.

And all of my female colleagues said, "I don't like that idea.

I don't like the idea of the men going off and doing stuff, and I'm like, "Why don't you like that idea?"

And it was because she was a little bit older and I think it was because it smacked her of the old boys club, right?

It was exclusion.

So, we have to find a way to think about how we can have those spaces and opportunities for male solidarity and friendship in a way that's not exclusive in terms of like power and try--you know what I mean?

Joe: Yeah, know, I would say I've got good friends, and I can just--I can go.

I haven't seen them for a while though, we'll just pick up right away, but they are spread out all over the country for me too.

Richard: We're now having to just get more intentional about it.

The other thing I hear a lot, and it's certainly happened with me is that, something happens in the conversations between men where even if we have to talk first of all about baseball, or soccer, or whatever it is at first, either someone says, "Can we talk about how you're marria-- I'm really struggling with my marriage."

One of my friends, for example, his marriage is ending, right?

And we--on our last weekend he was talking about that.

And so, suddenly it totally changed the conversation for the rest of the weekend, right?

Suddenly we're talking, and then we're all talking about our own marriages, our own struggles.

Like--and then we sort of started talking about problems with alcohol.

I stopped drinking a few years ago -- really struggled with alcohol.

And so, we got to talk about that.

And so, there's sometimes there's a moment when men go from the sort of performance Fitbit.

Joe: We will talk stock tips and fantasy sports, but we will not be like, "Oh, I'm actually--I'm really--I'm struggling Richard: I'm really struggling.

And it takes--I think it takes a lot of trust and--trust to do that, but I'm interested how many men I know who are now doing that.

Joe: Sounds like you have a little hope.

Richard: I do, I think that we're rising to the occasion.

I think it's taking some time and it's gonna be--it's difficult, but I hear more and more men saying that they are intentionally spending time with each other and they are intentionally getting serious about this stuff, right?

We don't need to--you know, they're saying like--you know, essentially we're doing something.

You know this whole thing about shoulder to shoulder versus face to face communication, you know about that?

Joe: No, I just walked next to you the whole time like-- Richard: But that's what men do.

So, there's good evidence that men are more comfortable communicating with each other a little bit shoulder to shoulder, yeah, or at least at an angle like this because face to face is quite threatening, right?

Whereas women are face to face.

Joe: I'm gonna give you eye contact right now, right?

Richard: But you see, I go into a coffee shop and you'll see a lot more women like this than men, right?

But men, the thing is, we very often have to be doing something else to scaffold our friendships.

This shoulder to--is the only explanation for golf, right?

So, when I got--when I don't play golf, but like--do you play golf?

Joe: Not well.

Richard: When--here's my theory, is that when a one man says to another man who like--he's there, and one man says, "Do you think I should use the 6 iron for this?

What he's actually saying is, "I love you."

And I think we're getting to the point now where we're getting better at saying, "I love you," not, "should I use a 6 iron."

But that's a transition.

That's a generational shift and it's hard, it's really hard.

Joe: That's really hard.

Richard: Another friend of mine, he has his golf, like he was much more kind of traditionally masculine, maybe.

And he has a golfing weekend.

And he said--well, they've been doing this for years and all they'd ever talked about was kind of sports and -- And then one guy came along one year and said, "I have a proposal that we have a real conversation."

And he said, "The weekends have been transformed ever since."

But it took one guy to do that.

Joe: The fix wasn't complicated, it took courage.

One guy changed the subject and their friendships deepened.

To be clear, busting on friends is still a time honored tradition I fully support, but I want more substance too.

I recognize the imbalance in my life, having too many acquaintances and not enough friends.

It was time to change that.

Donnell Brockington: Hey, what's going on, Joe?

Joe: So glad you're here, man.

It was so good to see you.

Donnell: Oh, man, so good to see you.

How are you doing?

Joe: Thanks for meeting me, man.

I appreciate it.

Donnell: Absolutely, definitely.

Joe: That's good, when's the last time you played?

Donnell: It had to be about--I mean, my oldest is about 8, probably about 8 years ago.

Joe: And how old is your oldest?

Eight years ago, okay, that lines up, that lines up.

Donnell: For sure, for sure.

Joe: Meet Donnell, he's employed by a company I do photography and video production for.

And we've worked together for 7 years.

He's always been kind and good for a laugh, but after all this time, I only knew 3 things about him.

He's a dad of two girls, he works hard, and he makes people smile.

This is our first time meeting outside of the corporate walls.

Joe: I want to be much more intentional with friendships this year.

I was worried about like being guilt--like feeling guilty like if I'm with my wife, I'm not with--I'm not at my job.

You know, if I'm with my kid, I'm not like paying attention to my wife and that kind of circle of guilt.

I've forgotten about myself being a dad, you know, trying to be the best partner, trying to be the best dad, trying to be the best, you know, husband and boss as well, and I was like, "All right, I need to make more time for friendships," you know, so.

Donnell: I'm glad we got a chance today to do so.

Joe: Yeah, you know, after college I'll just--I've had plenty of friends.

I just, you know, we all disperse.

Donnell: I have some friends that I grew up with, right?

But you get into your adulthood and you start to lose that time with each other.

Joe: There it is.

Donnell: We doing good, Joe.

That's finally-- Joe: We just--honestly, we need--I wanted one of us to sink this right away because it's been too long.

We're gonna get our rhythm back right now.

So, right now how many close friends do you think you have?

Donnell: I can probably count my close friends on both hands.

Joe: That's awesome.

Donnell: I didn't realize you were playing on the 8 right now.

Oh, okay that was--that's why you were so quiet.

I got it, I got it.

You were focused.

Joe: I'm a little stealthy when I wanna be, man, a little bit.

That's that photojournalism background, like.

Donnell: There you go, I see it.

Good game, Joe.

Joe: All right, finally I got one.

Donnell: Just like football.

Joe: Just like-- Donnell: It's a game of inches.

Joe: To me, you know, finding friendship today, you know, there's--it's kind of finding that third place, I feel like.

There's--the first place has been--it's kind of like your home, your family, right?

The second place can be work and that's where you can find friends too.

And then the third is like, what is that though?

I feel like our generation has really started to lose that third place, whether it's been church, or bowling, or like some kind of other, you know, friend group.

Donnell: I think our generation lost that when social media came about, to be honest with you, right, because it took the social part out of it, losing that access of building personal relationship, right?

Again for me, I take it upon myself to connect, right?

But connecting with old friends, connecting with new friends, right?

You have to take it upon yourself to build that friendship, right?

And build that community for you.

Just like our friendship now is being built based off of where we met and where we started, right?

And it's on us to continue to build on it.

Joe: What do you do to work on your friendships?

How do you keep them active?

Donnell: I would say with my close friends that I grew up with, we have a group chat.

So, it's about ten of us in that group chat.

You know, we spent a lot of, you know, time, you know, connecting in that regard, right?

Because everybody's life is different as I spoke to you a little bit earlier.

Joe: How long has that been going on, like that group chat?

Like months, is this years?

Donnell: This is years that group chat has been active, right?

And we utilize that as a space for us to connect, right?

Because everybody's life is busy, everybody has careers and families-- Joe: It's hard to get together.

Your wife is--got a great job too and she's traveling a lot.

So, like you are in charge of your daughters just you a lot of the time.

Donnell: Absolutely, and it's not an easy feat.

Joe: Yeah, we almost had to reschedule this because it's like we both had trouble with child care and it's like it's really hard.

Donnell: That we did, but you know when there's a will there's a way.

I call friends on my ride home, so I drive to the city pretty much every day to go to work, right?

So, I have an hour commute.

Going into work, that's my quiet time.

So, I take that time to get prepared, you know.

For the energy-- Joe: I don't know how many people wanna get called at 8 in the morning too anyway, oh, yeah.

Donnell: Right, but on the way home, you know, I'll--if somebody pops up in my mind like, "Let me give him a call or I'll shoot him a text and try to see if we can connect and make some time."

So, that's important that, you know, again, be thoughtful.

Joe: Yeah, someone has been inspiring me to be better this year too, it's Trevor Noah.

Then one thing he's been saying he's been working on is friendship, about how intentional he is.

And one of the things he does with his own friends is he talks about like, you know, "Ask the question."

Trevor Noah: We have a song that we sing which is called, "Are You Ready for the Question?"

And then we ask ourselves a question that we've been struggling with because you realize sometimes, you can even become a superhero to your own friend group.

Joe: I know I've been worried.

I'm like, "If I tell my friend my burdens, my problems, are they actually gonna wanna be with me?

You know, and it's scary and so it's like, "Okay, how do I figure out how to be like--how do I feel like that emotional courage like, I'm gonna open up.

I'm gonna say the question, I'm gonna say the thing that's been really been on my mind.

And so, you know, to me, I'm gonna tell you like the financial stress that I feel right now as a dad with the prices of everything, I've really struggled.

I've like woken up in the middle of the night.

With how tough, it's like, "Okay, are we gonna--am I gonna figure out how to pay myself this month?

You know, am I gonna figure out how to complete the show?

Am I gonna actually be able to save any money for a vacation or summer camp?"

Donnell: Yeah, I would just say, you know, don't be scared to reach out to someone that you think could help you in that regard, right?

Closed mouths don't get fed, right?

So, you know, and nobody's a mind reader.

Joe: You bring a different energy, man.

Every time I see you, you're like--you are optimistic.

Donnell: You know, and that's--I feel that's my purpose, you know, my purpose in life is to bring that and be that.

Joe: I'm glad I reached out to you.

I'm so glad to see you, bud.

I appreciate you.

Thank you though.

Joe: Donnell reinforced some good advice I heard.

You don't build trust by asking for it, you build trust by giving it.

I want to be the guy who goes beyond small talk and shares what I'm struggling with.

It also reminded me something Richard Reeves said about a mental health campaign in the UK called, "Ask Twice."

Men often dismiss the first check-in question with, "I'm fine," but asking a second time can lead to real conversations.

male: You all right, mate?

male: Yeah!

Yeah, I'm fine.

male: Sometimes people say they're fine when they're not, but with one in four experiencing a mental health problem, to really find out, ask twice.

male: Are you sure you're all right?

male: Actually, I could do with some help.

male: Well, let's talk about it.

male: Yeah, do you mind?

Richard: Like if you say to a guy, "How are you doing?"

Joe: "I'm fine."

Richard: "Look, I'm great."

And then what about, you know, what about them Orioles or whatever.

Joe: Or about the Phillies.

Richard: Yeah, exactly, so actually the whole campaign was--asking what--"How are you doing?"

Then, "How are you really doing?"

Look him in the eye and say, "Okay, we've done that performance a bit, now, how are you really doing?"

And what you're signaling then is, I actually want the truth.

This is not just--like we're in the elevator, "Have a good day."

"How are you doing?"

"Great," right, this is like I actually wanna know.

And I think as men we are sometimes--we have to give each other permission to share in a way that maybe women don't know as much.

Women presume that if they start sharing their vulnerability with--particularly with another woman, that they're gonna have a kind of empathetic and receptive mode.

We don't presume that.

Joe: No, I don't presume that at all.

Richard: And so, actually it's quite important to give permission to the other guy to say, "Look, I am--I actually do want to know, I don't want to,"-- Joe: To take steps for more meaningful connection, I bought baseball tickets, a 17-game Phillies plan this year, and after my family picks their seats, I'm inviting friends old and new, to strengthen my social muscles.

Events are a low pressure way to connect.

And like Donnell said, I'm also checking in more often on my way home from work.

If someone pops into my mind, I'm sending them a text or making a call.

And I'm creating new routines, recurring Friday dinners with couples, friends of ours, and a guys night every other week.

My wife is doing the same with her circle.

Normalizing routine with friends is strengthening our own socialization.

By doing this for me, I'm showing my son how important friendships are, so he'll value them too.

And remember, ask him twice.

I trust you'll get a good answer.

This is "Grown Up Dad."

Joe: I'm gonna have to start taunting you, man.

Like this is-- Donnell: This where it gets more difficult, you know.

The less I have on the table, the more, you know, table I have to cover, so.

Joe: Let's see if I can just.

Donnell: I don't think so.

Joe: Okay, w'ell-- Donnell: I'll take that as a-- Joe: That's a good blooper reel one.

That's a good blooper reel one.

Donnell: I'll take that as a shot.

Joe: All right, I'm gonna knock something down.

Donnell: All right, here we go, all right.

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